I received a rider for a headliner (which shall remain nameless) which specified Heritage, PM4000, etc... for FOH Console and also noted "Digital Consoles are a last resort." However, upon advancing the show I learned that they travel with their own SAC System with Behringer Preamps which they use for FOH and Monitors and will mix with a tablet. I offered to let them use my Heritage 3000 for FOH as well as my A&H ML monitor console because THEY WILL BE THERE ANYWAY for opening acts and we have enough channels/outboard to accommodate all of the acts. However, they preferred to stick with their system despite the fact that they used all of my mics and wedges. I simply gave them inputs to the FOH and Monitor consoles. Needless to say the Heritage Preamps blew that setup away sonically! I'm not saying that the SAC system necessarily sounded bad, but it seems ridiculous that they would not utilize great tools when they are provided.
Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
- Thread starter Brandon Blakeney
- Start date
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
Were they using a lot of scene recall?
Chris
Were they using a lot of scene recall?
Chris
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
Maybe he wants to use the tools he runs the show on every night. That's what a rider is about -- making sure you have the tools you are familiar with to do the show.
The small amount of quality difference (once you're on a noisy stage, the difference really does get dwarfed by all the other things that distort your sound out there -- its still hearable, but not nearly as much as one would think) is more than made up for by being able to run a consistent show night after night. If I have my entire show mapped out in SAC (or an SC48, or an M7CL, or whatever board I map it out on), I just have to turn it on and adjust to the room. if I have to figure out how to make the show work on an unfamiliar setup (not just the board -- that's the easy part... all the outboard gear that is different and patched differently in every venue you show up in), then I'm spending more time and attention trying to re-work how to make the show work on the local gear, and less time working on making the music better.
One big plus to SAC is its ability to have multiple people connect in and run different monitor boards... letting people on stage run their own mixes just like with an Aviom setup. If his performers are used to that, giving that up to use your H3000 would make no sense at all.
Not gonna get into any debate over SAC itself... just pointing out that any sound quality difference is more than made up for by the utility of having the same tools night after night.
If I were him, I'd probably try to upgrade the pres though. The Behringer ones don't seem so bad at first. But once you use SAC with XL48 pres or even M-audio Profire pres, you start to realize that the Behringer pres really were the weak link in the audio chain there.
Maybe he wants to use the tools he runs the show on every night. That's what a rider is about -- making sure you have the tools you are familiar with to do the show.
The small amount of quality difference (once you're on a noisy stage, the difference really does get dwarfed by all the other things that distort your sound out there -- its still hearable, but not nearly as much as one would think) is more than made up for by being able to run a consistent show night after night. If I have my entire show mapped out in SAC (or an SC48, or an M7CL, or whatever board I map it out on), I just have to turn it on and adjust to the room. if I have to figure out how to make the show work on an unfamiliar setup (not just the board -- that's the easy part... all the outboard gear that is different and patched differently in every venue you show up in), then I'm spending more time and attention trying to re-work how to make the show work on the local gear, and less time working on making the music better.
One big plus to SAC is its ability to have multiple people connect in and run different monitor boards... letting people on stage run their own mixes just like with an Aviom setup. If his performers are used to that, giving that up to use your H3000 would make no sense at all.
Not gonna get into any debate over SAC itself... just pointing out that any sound quality difference is more than made up for by the utility of having the same tools night after night.
If I were him, I'd probably try to upgrade the pres though. The Behringer ones don't seem so bad at first. But once you use SAC with XL48 pres or even M-audio Profire pres, you start to realize that the Behringer pres really were the weak link in the audio chain there.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
No, it was a simple 5 piece band. 19 inputs in total.
No, it was a simple 5 piece band. 19 inputs in total.
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
I will use the LS9 I tour with over anything else, simply because my mix is already built. It saves time and effort on everybody involved and honestly I've never had a punter come up and tell me that the preamps sounded grainy and I should have used the house midas. The fans don't know any better, and I can deliver a quality, consistent product night after night with my lower end desk.
I will use the LS9 I tour with over anything else, simply because my mix is already built. It saves time and effort on everybody involved and honestly I've never had a punter come up and tell me that the preamps sounded grainy and I should have used the house midas. The fans don't know any better, and I can deliver a quality, consistent product night after night with my lower end desk.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
It all comes down to laziness. Here You have one of the best sounding consoles in the world setup and patched to your specs. All You have to do is
dial it in. I suppose it also could be that perhaps the artist is "leasing/renting" the SAC from the BE or something.
It all comes down to laziness. Here You have one of the best sounding consoles in the world setup and patched to your specs. All You have to do is
dial it in. I suppose it also could be that perhaps the artist is "leasing/renting" the SAC from the BE or something.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
No, sometimes it all comes down to what the boss wants you to use, and in most cases the boss wants you to use the equipment he paid for. It's also best to use the equipment that the band is used to.
The BE knows what his equipment will do, and what condition it is in. There's no way for him to know if the house gear has been properly maintained or not.
No, sometimes it all comes down to what the boss wants you to use, and in most cases the boss wants you to use the equipment he paid for. It's also best to use the equipment that the band is used to.
The BE knows what his equipment will do, and what condition it is in. There's no way for him to know if the house gear has been properly maintained or not.
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness. I have all of my channel processing in place and tweaked already. And chances are, you don't have the 15 comps and 8 deessers that I want in your processing rack. Not to mention all the verbs that I use and can recall for specific songs.
My mix has been tweaked over the last year or so and is as tight as a gnat's ass. I can't deliver that mix when I only get 1 hour of soundcheck time. And thats only if the day is running on schedule!
It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness. I have all of my channel processing in place and tweaked already. And chances are, you don't have the 15 comps and 8 deessers that I want in your processing rack. Not to mention all the verbs that I use and can recall for specific songs.
My mix has been tweaked over the last year or so and is as tight as a gnat's ass. I can't deliver that mix when I only get 1 hour of soundcheck time. And thats only if the day is running on schedule!
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
Mixing consoles are no longer like pianos, where it used to be much easier to use the existing piano (sometimes you'd get a grand piano!) in a venue than haul your own.
Nowadays mixers are more like guitar rigs - you've got your favorite Strat, your specific kit of effects pedals, and an amp that sounds good onstage with the other players. But now the club owner is miffed that you don't want to play through his Marshall stack?
Playing with toys versus putting on a show.
Mixing consoles are no longer like pianos, where it used to be much easier to use the existing piano (sometimes you'd get a grand piano!) in a venue than haul your own.
Nowadays mixers are more like guitar rigs - you've got your favorite Strat, your specific kit of effects pedals, and an amp that sounds good onstage with the other players. But now the club owner is miffed that you don't want to play through his Marshall stack?
Playing with toys versus putting on a show.
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Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
So you would rather play through a Behringer guitar amp than a Mesa Triple Rectifier?
So you would rather play through a Behringer guitar amp than a Mesa Triple Rectifier?
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
Brandon, I think you're forgetting the fact that the B.E. (and the band) would rather be back at the hotel, or anywhere else other than sound checking. If using a digital console expedites this process as opposed to the steam powered Midas.... You'll soon have to deal with the fact that the only person who gives a rats ass that there's a Midas , 7', 500 lb console out front is..ugh........you.
Brandon, I think you're forgetting the fact that the B.E. (and the band) would rather be back at the hotel, or anywhere else other than sound checking. If using a digital console expedites this process as opposed to the steam powered Midas.... You'll soon have to deal with the fact that the only person who gives a rats ass that there's a Midas , 7', 500 lb console out front is..ugh........you.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
We need the "like" button...
Helmke, Presley, Hathaway and Weaver (sounds like a CPA firm) nail it. I'm happy for Brandon that he got the mixer of his dreams (at a decent price, IIRC)... but that doesn't mean that others dream of mixing on an H3K, from scratch, with whatever assortment of insertable dynamics du jour might exist. The fundamental utility of a fully configurable system like the SAC along with the size/weight difference simply trumps the H3K, PM4/5K, etc for most acts these days.
I was an analog Luddite, expecting to retire before this new-fangled digital stuff took off. Technology moved faster than the Grim Reaper (so far), but as I continue to age I appreciate the reduction of back pain and what I can accomplish for my clients with digital mixing. As much as I liked it, analog's presence in the national and regional markets will continue to diminish. There will be no medal for the Last Analog Guy Standing.
We need the "like" button...
Helmke, Presley, Hathaway and Weaver (sounds like a CPA firm) nail it. I'm happy for Brandon that he got the mixer of his dreams (at a decent price, IIRC)... but that doesn't mean that others dream of mixing on an H3K, from scratch, with whatever assortment of insertable dynamics du jour might exist. The fundamental utility of a fully configurable system like the SAC along with the size/weight difference simply trumps the H3K, PM4/5K, etc for most acts these days.
I was an analog Luddite, expecting to retire before this new-fangled digital stuff took off. Technology moved faster than the Grim Reaper (so far), but as I continue to age I appreciate the reduction of back pain and what I can accomplish for my clients with digital mixing. As much as I liked it, analog's presence in the national and regional markets will continue to diminish. There will be no medal for the Last Analog Guy Standing.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
If my normal rig was a Behringer guitar amp then the answer is yes I would rather play thru it than a Mesa Triple Rectifier. The fact is, I doubt either would be my regular gtr rig but that is beside the point.
Analog is dead. Used to be that your workflow would be about the same no matter which analog console and processing racks you had patched in. But now it's about workflow as well as everything else. Time saved onstage is time spent getting rest, a proper meal, winding down, writing a song, doing business, working on your relationship....
And the difference in sound is usually somewhere between negligible, subjective, and doesn't matter anyway....
I mixed a show the other night and the rig had an analog console and I realized it had been nearly 2 years since I mixed a band on an analog console. I couldn't think of one thing I liked better about mixing on the analog console.
If my normal rig was a Behringer guitar amp then the answer is yes I would rather play thru it than a Mesa Triple Rectifier. The fact is, I doubt either would be my regular gtr rig but that is beside the point.
Analog is dead. Used to be that your workflow would be about the same no matter which analog console and processing racks you had patched in. But now it's about workflow as well as everything else. Time saved onstage is time spent getting rest, a proper meal, winding down, writing a song, doing business, working on your relationship....
And the difference in sound is usually somewhere between negligible, subjective, and doesn't matter anyway....
I mixed a show the other night and the rig had an analog console and I realized it had been nearly 2 years since I mixed a band on an analog console. I couldn't think of one thing I liked better about mixing on the analog console.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
I moved this thread to JV because nobody in Varsity is surprised that the headliner ran what they brought.
I moved this thread to JV because nobody in Varsity is surprised that the headliner ran what they brought.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
I think Shane Presley really nailed the bottom issue. For a local venue/provider, the most important thing about soundchecking a touring act is getting them happy and off to dinner as efficiently as possible. OK, so you got an old rider... that's one of the most common complaints in the business.
I think Shane Presley really nailed the bottom issue. For a local venue/provider, the most important thing about soundchecking a touring act is getting them happy and off to dinner as efficiently as possible. OK, so you got an old rider... that's one of the most common complaints in the business.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
I guess small/regional sound companies are reaching the end? If these acts are now bringing their own inexpensive digital consoles and mixing FOH/monitors with a tablet then why not just go in-ears, carry a mic package, and carry a nice ground stacked line array in the trailer behind the bus. Now you have completely thwarted the local sound co. and can keep all the money
I guess small/regional sound companies are reaching the end? If these acts are now bringing their own inexpensive digital consoles and mixing FOH/monitors with a tablet then why not just go in-ears, carry a mic package, and carry a nice ground stacked line array in the trailer behind the bus. Now you have completely thwarted the local sound co. and can keep all the money
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
Because I can't fit a speaker system in my trailer. Thats why.
I do carry all of that other stuff. Plus more.
Realistically I don't want to carry pa though. I might be playing a 300 cap bar on thursday, and a 5000 cap amphitheater on Saturday.
A trailer behind a bus can't be that long. It goes over the DOT limit of what constitutes a "large load" or whatever. Our trailer has merch, instruments, consoles, iems, and lighting.
Because I can't fit a speaker system in my trailer. Thats why.
I do carry all of that other stuff. Plus more.
Realistically I don't want to carry pa though. I might be playing a 300 cap bar on thursday, and a 5000 cap amphitheater on Saturday.
A trailer behind a bus can't be that long. It goes over the DOT limit of what constitutes a "large load" or whatever. Our trailer has merch, instruments, consoles, iems, and lighting.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
My main issues, as selfish as it may seem, is that I started in this business because I enjoy running sound systems (my own). This is not my day job and I'm not sure I would want it to be. Once I reached the level of providing for acts that had riders I had to accept that many would bring their own engineers to run my gear, which is fine, I'll run openers...whatever. But I'm not going to just become a P.A. rental house, I do believe that the industry switched to digital consoles prematurely. There are at least two threads on this forum about failures in digital consoles. I almost bought an M7 ES rig a couple of years back but did not believe it to sound as good as analog options available to me for the same money.
My main issues, as selfish as it may seem, is that I started in this business because I enjoy running sound systems (my own). This is not my day job and I'm not sure I would want it to be. Once I reached the level of providing for acts that had riders I had to accept that many would bring their own engineers to run my gear, which is fine, I'll run openers...whatever. But I'm not going to just become a P.A. rental house, I do believe that the industry switched to digital consoles prematurely. There are at least two threads on this forum about failures in digital consoles. I almost bought an M7 ES rig a couple of years back but did not believe it to sound as good as analog options available to me for the same money.
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
We just supplied an M7 and SC48 for a local festival this past weekend with no issues whatsoever. The band engineers were happy to see them, and many had files already.
We just supplied an M7 and SC48 for a local festival this past weekend with no issues whatsoever. The band engineers were happy to see them, and many had files already.
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System
Very few Digital consoles can match the audio quality of even a midrange level analog desk. And those that can match the sonics cost a small fortune usually. The thing that killed analog is the convenience, price, and weight of digital. A 48 channel analog rig takes up a pretty large amount of real estate both in the truck and in the house. When you consider that a venue can sell 4-5 more tickets because your footprint is smaller and that it takes two guys to flip the desk instead of 4, you can start seeing the benefit. One guy can run the ethernet snake in a couple minutes, it goes on and on.
Add to that the fact that typically a soundcheck can be run in half (or less) the time that it does on an analog desk. Plus the same desk can be used for an unlimited amount of opening acts and the headliners settings always come back perfect.
Analog is dead. Whether you like it or not. In the same way we don't use an icebox anymore because we have a refrigerator that will crush ice and spit out chilled water with a touch of a button.
Very few Digital consoles can match the audio quality of even a midrange level analog desk. And those that can match the sonics cost a small fortune usually. The thing that killed analog is the convenience, price, and weight of digital. A 48 channel analog rig takes up a pretty large amount of real estate both in the truck and in the house. When you consider that a venue can sell 4-5 more tickets because your footprint is smaller and that it takes two guys to flip the desk instead of 4, you can start seeing the benefit. One guy can run the ethernet snake in a couple minutes, it goes on and on.
Add to that the fact that typically a soundcheck can be run in half (or less) the time that it does on an analog desk. Plus the same desk can be used for an unlimited amount of opening acts and the headliners settings always come back perfect.
Analog is dead. Whether you like it or not. In the same way we don't use an icebox anymore because we have a refrigerator that will crush ice and spit out chilled water with a touch of a button.