Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Tim Weaver said:
Very few Digital consoles can match the audio quality of even a midrange level analog desk. And those that can match the sonics cost a small fortune usually. The thing that killed analog is the convenience, price, and weight of digital. A 48 channel analog rig takes up a pretty large amount of real estate both in the truck and in the house. When you consider that a venue can sell 4-5 more tickets because your footprint is smaller and that it takes two guys to flip the desk instead of 4, you can start seeing the benefit. One guy can run the ethernet snake in a couple minutes, it goes on and on.

Add to that the fact that typically a soundcheck can be run in half (or less) the time that it does on an analog desk. Plus the same desk can be used for an unlimited amount of opening acts and the headliners settings always come back perfect.


Analog is dead. Whether you like it or not. In the same way we don't use an icebox anymore because we have a refrigerator that will crush ice and spit out chilled water with a touch of a button.
Click to expand...

I agree with your points, however, in this instance none of those problems existed. There was plenty of room for an analog foh, my crew setup the console and I did all of the patching myself. This is the first time this has happened to me, nobody has ever refused to use my consoles. I will say though that I understand why this particular BE traveled with such a mixer, they typically play bars that have poor sound systems....but, for this night I feel like I had the best solution.

I'm actually renting out my console over the next couple of weeks to another company which is using it for FOH in a theater for a couple of big country acts, I'll be there teching it... sounds like fun.

What really worries me is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry will buy an M32 and we will never provide FOH again.... :/
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

I scooted our SD9 aside for a touring act with an X32 the other night. Do I think the Digico sounds better than the X32? Sure, but I wasn't surprised or confused that he used it. He had his whole show ready to go... Just EQ the PA and the mix fell right into place... And him and the boys went back to the hotel. Everyone was happy. I mix monitors for a band with a DM1000 - which I am no fan of at all, but the band wouldn't be too happy with me if I made them do an extended soundcheck just to setup and patch in the venues SC48 or etc mon console :)
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

I was taught a phrase early on in my career. "Work smart, not hard!" Using the digital console you were on last night, and the night before, and so on is simply being smart. Why reinvent the wheel. It may not sound "as good" as your Heritage, but it will definitely be consistent.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Brandon Blakeney said:
...
What really worries me is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry will buy an M32 and we will never provide FOH again.... :/
Click to expand...


i dont know what a H3K goes for now
or how you would predict ROI

my guess is you could get several m32's for that price

and you could probably keep them rented
to bus acts if nothing else

as a one-man JV shop
all of my x-gear has paid for itself and
not one person has complained at any of my gigs

punters have all left smiling

clients have been quick with the check

no crew call

the 'national' i do is tickled to death
with my xrack in his iem rig

the entire system [including split] is in one 16U rack
that sits behind the bass rig

no offense
[i tech'd beached whales for 2+ decades]
but i would politely decline the use of your lovely warm analogue behemoth as well


0.02...
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Tim Weaver said:
Very few Digital consoles can match the audio quality of even a midrange level analog desk. And those that can match the sonics cost a small fortune usually.
Click to expand...
I think that's a little generous. I'm not sure what you consider a "midrange level analog desk", but something like the PM4000 with usual outboard is no better sounding than any of the recent mid-range digitals; and the procurement cost of an SC48, SD9, CL/QL, ILive/GLD is a heck of a lot less than the old PM4K+outboard.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Brandon Blakeney said:
I agree with your points, however, in this instance none of those problems existed. There was plenty of room for an analog foh, my crew setup the console and I did all of the patching myself. This is the first time this has happened to me, nobody has ever refused to use my consoles. I will say though that I understand why this particular BE traveled with such a mixer, they typically play bars that have poor sound systems....but, for this night I feel like I had the best solution.

I'm actually renting out my console over the next couple of weeks to another company which is using it for FOH in a theater for a couple of big country acts, I'll be there teching it... sounds like fun.

What really worries me is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry will buy an M32 and we will never provide FOH again.... :/
Click to expand...

Brandon, I appreciate your thoughtfulness in this thread. Previously you have come across as a little bit of a zealot about your gear.

This thread and the one on PSW about anklebiters bring to light some of the questions facing those "doing production" at some level.

1. Decide whether you are a business or not.
2. If yes, Decide what business you are in. If no, do whatever the heck you feel like, because you have a hobby and get to make your own rules.
3. Come up with a business plan that offers something the world actually needs at a price where you can stay in business.
4. Suck it up when your business/business plan requires making decisions that aren't your personal first choice.
5. If you hold on loosely to your current plans and paradigm, technology can be your friend.

These are hard questions - many of us got into this because we enjoy certain aspects of this. What "this" is is different in 2014 than it was in 2004, 1994, 1984, etc. What "this" is in 2014 may not include some of the aspects that we enjoy.

I am one of "those people" with a day job in another industry. Because of this, I can use the gear I feel like using, and my economic realities are different than a "real company". That being said, even I have had to go through a process of figuring out what the heck I am doing, as my world is changing, too. Over the last few years I have learned that what I really love is making events associated with causes that are important to me be excellent. I did a show yesterday that ended up being a 17-hour day, and I am back at work at the day job first thing this morning on 5 hours of sleep. I don't love the 2 hours of packing up, lifting heavy stuff, mosquitoes while loading the truck, or a few other less fun elements. I do really enjoy producing a really quality product that makes my customers look good, and that I worked up to this level through years of hard work. I also know that if I tried to live the life of a real road dog, I would be miserable, likely broke and/or divorced, etc.

At question 1 I bailed, and am enjoying making my own rules.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

TJ Cornish said:
I think that's a little generous. I'm not sure what you consider a "midrange level analog desk", but something like the PM4000 with usual outboard is no better sounding than any of the recent mid-range digitals; and the procurement cost of an SC48, SD9, CL/QL, ILive/GLD is a heck of a lot less than the old PM4K+outboard.
Click to expand...


Thats hair splitting. There are many MI level console that sound better than a 4k. Midas' small boards, A&H GL's, Soundcrafts GB's. All of those are nicer soundin than a 4k.

I'm talking about MH, Crest HP, Midas Sienna tupe midrange stuff.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Brandon,
Your ignorance to the touring world is showing. I toured with various consoles over the past 7 years. Didn't matter if the house desk was an XL4 or M7CL, I used my tour package 100% of the time. Now on the flip side of things as the local PA provider, I frequently provide racks and stacks for gigs. No skin off my back, I still get paid the same rate and I don't have to set up a FOH console. Don't take it personally, just smile and move on. The band leaves happy, the FOH guy hopefully likes the rest of the rig and leaves happy, and the crowd probably had a goood time and leaves happy too. You still got paid, so I'm sure you left happy too.





Evan
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

TJ Cornish said:
Brandon, I appreciate your thoughtfulness in this thread. Previously you have come across as a little bit of a zealot about your gear.

This thread and the one on PSW about anklebiters bring to light some of the questions facing those "doing production" at some level.

1. Decide whether you are a business or not.
2. If yes, Decide what business you are in. If no, do whatever the heck you feel like, because you have a hobby and get to make your own rules.
3. Come up with a business plan that offers something the world actually needs at a price where you can stay in business.
4. Suck it up when your business/business plan requires making decisions that aren't your personal first choice.
5. If you hold on loosely to your current plans and paradigm, technology can be your friend.

These are hard questions - many of us got into this because we enjoy certain aspects of this. What "this" is is different in 2014 than it was in 2004, 1994, 1984, etc. What "this" is in 2014 may not include some of the aspects that we enjoy.

I am one of "those people" with a day job in another industry. Because of this, I can use the gear I feel like using, and my economic realities are different than a "real company". That being said, even I have had to go through a process of figuring out what the heck I am doing, as my world is changing, too. Over the last few years I have learned that what I really love is making events associated with causes that are important to me be excellent. I did a show yesterday that ended up being a 17-hour day, and I am back at work at the day job first thing this morning on 5 hours of sleep. I don't love the 2 hours of packing up, lifting heavy stuff, mosquitoes while loading the truck, or a few other less fun elements. I do really enjoy producing a really quality product that makes my customers look good, and that I worked up to this level through years of hard work. I also know that if I tried to live the life of a real road dog, I would be miserable, likely broke and/or divorced, etc.

At question 1 I bailed, and am enjoying making my own rules.
Click to expand...

Is it a business on paper? Yes.... Is it really a business? No...I agree that this is really just a hobby because I don't make a whole lot of money doing it. With that being said, I still have one of the best rigs of any provider in my area. I also think that we do a good job. Like I said before, if we're relegated to just providing racks and stacks to low level touring acts coming through the area, then I'm really not interested anymore.

One of my favorite memories is a show we did back in April with Country Singer Andy Griggs, he's certainly no A list artist, but he's very talented and so is his band. He is unique in that he carries no FOH guy despite being in a price range that often carries one. I mixed that show myself on the Heritage and it was the most fun imaginable to someone who dreamed for years and years of owning such a console, I've also used the console for a couple of Known country acts that did carry BE's. I think I may have slightly overreacted because this is the first time that it's really become an issue, we typically do older country acts and many from the 90's which you would think would be well acquainted with the Heritage. Paying 10-15K for a console is a chunk of change to a little company like mine, so we're glad to finally have the opportunity to purchase some gear as nice as this.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Just my 2 cents for Tim:

please don't state things as objective facts, if they are subjective. We are talking here about sound.
one likes Midas sound others like the sound of Yamahas. That said none of them are bad or good. They are just different.
as our preferences are.
Same goes for digital consoles or even for Analog vs Digital.

sorry, i felt, I have to write it down. :-)

cheers,

Tamas
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

but, for this night I feel like I had the best solution.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter how you feel about this. The band disagreed. They thought they had the best solution for them.
Brandon Blakeney said:
this is the first time that it's really become an issue
Click to expand...
It's only an issue for you. It wasn't an issue for the band at all. They didn't want to use it.

Many years ago I was head at an A-list house with a great-sounding analog console at FOH. Like you I would get baffled and frustrated when acts didn't want to use it but instead would use their vastly inferior consoles. I learned very quickly that it didn't matter one bit what I thought. If the act wanted to use their gear for their show then so be it. The show would go on. These weren't my shows to design, set up or mix anyway. I was a facilitator, helping to integrate the incoming act's audio needs into our house. A vendor such as yourself on this occasion is the same thing - a facilitator for the band.
If you really don't want rent racks and stacks then don't.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

All comes down to who is paying your bill... If it's the band, don't worry about their engineer! If it's someone who will ultimately hold you responsible even if you aren't mixing - then go ahead and care!
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Samuel Rees said:
All comes down to who is paying your bill... If it's the band, don't worry about their engineer! If it's someone who will ultimately hold you responsible even if you aren't mixing - then go ahead and care!
Click to expand...

And if that's the case.... http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=149982.0

Ultimately the question is "who signs my cheque, and what authority does that person give me to 'enforce' his standards?" Obviously different from BE to SE to "house guy", but important to understand before there are problems.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Sorry that I haven't posted here before. Spent plenty of time reading. This one got me going a bit. I am fairly certain that I had the same act through my venue and I have a fully loaded Digidesign Profile(before avid got a hold of em). The BE used his SAC rig and was kind enough to explain it all to me while sitting next to my very unlit profile. I found the features to be intriguing and the concept quite interesting. Having a monitor console for each mix is pretty substantial. That doesn't mean I'd ever take an SAC rig out. I need touchy knobs or else I have panic attacks. However, the engineer mixed a fine show, my patrons were extremely happy(I have a very difficult room), so who am I to judge his choice of hardware? Sorry for being so forward but I think at the end of the day if the guy gets it right I don't care if it is a Mackie 1604 or an SD10. The SAC rig cost me no money, my Profile was there whether he decided to use it or not, and I learned something about a piece of gear that I knew nothing about. My patrons left happy, I left happy, and the band left happy........I don't care what the engineer mixed on, he did a great job. I know my opinion carries little weight but in the end it isn't about the gear it is about the show.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Brandon Blakeney said:
I agree with your points, however, in this instance none of those problems existed. There was plenty of room for an analog foh, my crew setup the console and I did all of the patching myself. This is the first time this has happened to me, nobody has ever refused to use my consoles. I will say though that I understand why this particular BE traveled with such a mixer, they typically play bars that have poor sound systems....but, for this night I feel like I had the best solution.

I'm actually renting out my console over the next couple of weeks to another company which is using it for FOH in a theater for a couple of big country acts, I'll be there teching it... sounds like fun.

What really worries me is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry will buy an M32 and we will never provide FOH again.... :/
Click to expand...

As Tim and others have said, they don't carry racks and stacks for FOH, and although many are on IEM, some aren't, and won't have a monitor rig with them either.
So, look into your crystal ball, and maybe change your business plan to focus more on these things(upgrading speaker systems would be very noticeable), less on the Midas "your arms must be 48" long to reach all the faders" mixer, quit worrying about how much better the preamps sound, and make those touring folks really happy with a short and easy sound check, giving them more time to relax and have dinner.
Loudspeakers, mics, and room acoustics will trump preamp quality by a country mile in live sound as contributors to overall sound quality. Always.


Best regards,

John "Doing my best Andy Peters impersonation" Halliburton
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

John Halliburton said:
As Tim and others have said, they don't carry racks and stacks for FOH, and although many are on IEM, some aren't, and won't have a monitor rig with them either.
So, look into your crystal ball, and maybe change your business plan to focus more on these things(upgrading speaker systems would be very noticeable), less on the Midas "your arms must be 48" long to reach all the faders" mixer, quit worrying about how much better the preamps sound, and make those touring folks really happy with a short and easy sound check, giving them more time to relax and have dinner.
Loudspeakers, mics, and room acoustics will trump preamp quality by a country mile in live sound as contributors to overall sound quality. Always.


Best regards,

John "Doing my best Andy Peters impersonation" Halliburton
Click to expand...

And a fine impersonation it is.

IMNSHO, Brandon spent his money backwards - he has a nice (although now anachronistic) console, decent outboard and TVA speaker system. I'd have spent more on the PA and less on the mixer, simplified my life and make more money for my employer.
 
Re: Heritage for openers, Headliner preferred SAC System

Tim McCulloch said:
And a fine impersonation it is.

IMNSHO, Brandon spent his money backwards - he has a nice (although now anachronistic) console, decent outboard and TVA speaker system. I'd have spent more on the PA and less on the mixer, simplified my life and make more money for my employer.
Click to expand...

I have the most bang for my buck. At the time a Pro 2 with rack would have been double what I paid for the Heritage. Also, an equivalent name-brand line array would likely have cost 3 times as much. Every BE that has been on the TVI's seemed happy.
 
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