Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
I need to correct several posts I made earlier. the TC sounds 5100 is $900.
I need to correct several posts I made earlier. the TC sounds 5100 is $900.
I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
- Thread starter Dain Schneck
- Start date
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
The TC 5100 is also not on the list of drivers Josh suggests will work well in the Othorn he posted in the DIY post #5.
You are looking at some of the many conflicting goals in LF reproduction:
1) Extended LF reduces sensitivity, the Othorn, with an F3 around 27 Hz is not as sensitive as a horn of similar size (or smaller) with an F3 of 35-40 Hz.
2) Drivers with huge Xmax require heavier moving parts, (the voice coil, cone, surround, & spider(s) ), to withstand the higher power required, reducing sensitivity compared to drivers with less ultimate SPL potential.
3) Doubling cone area (and cabinets) gains 3 dB sensitivity.
Although a driver with double the Xmax can put out 6 dB more output given 6 dB more input, it may be 2-3 dB less sensitive to start with.
Two cabinets using drivers with less Xmax potential may have a similar cost as one less efficient "super driver", and may put out as much as 6 dB more output for a given a relatively low, power input. Two drivers splitting 1/2 the power needed to drive the single will also generally have less power compression (due to voice coil heating raising impedance), increasing the output gap.
In addition, amp specifications often don't tell the whole story regarding LF output, duty cycle, efficiency, peak, RMS and current limiters all affect "real world" bass output.
The QSC PLX 3602, for instance is not a particularly good amp for LF, and not nearly as efficient as some.
My reviews of the SpeakerPower SP4000 give you an idea of how it compares to others.
Art
Dain,
The TC 5100 is also not on the list of drivers Josh suggests will work well in the Othorn he posted in the DIY post #5.
You are looking at some of the many conflicting goals in LF reproduction:
1) Extended LF reduces sensitivity, the Othorn, with an F3 around 27 Hz is not as sensitive as a horn of similar size (or smaller) with an F3 of 35-40 Hz.
2) Drivers with huge Xmax require heavier moving parts, (the voice coil, cone, surround, & spider(s) ), to withstand the higher power required, reducing sensitivity compared to drivers with less ultimate SPL potential.
3) Doubling cone area (and cabinets) gains 3 dB sensitivity.
Although a driver with double the Xmax can put out 6 dB more output given 6 dB more input, it may be 2-3 dB less sensitive to start with.
Two cabinets using drivers with less Xmax potential may have a similar cost as one less efficient "super driver", and may put out as much as 6 dB more output for a given a relatively low, power input. Two drivers splitting 1/2 the power needed to drive the single will also generally have less power compression (due to voice coil heating raising impedance), increasing the output gap.
In addition, amp specifications often don't tell the whole story regarding LF output, duty cycle, efficiency, peak, RMS and current limiters all affect "real world" bass output.
The QSC PLX 3602, for instance is not a particularly good amp for LF, and not nearly as efficient as some.
My reviews of the SpeakerPower SP4000 give you an idea of how it compares to others.
Art
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
Art, thanks again for providing meaningful, relevant thought intensive information!
i would like to raise the F3 to 35hz of the Othorn but i'm afraid it's beyond my knowledge on how to do it the best way. I mean if someone even says, "all you need to do is XYZ." i wouldn't know how to implement that in real world anyway.
You gave a lot of sound theoretical advice in your last post, for sure, but I'm not sure what i'm supposed to do with all that information.
In the end, my goal was to build something that would appeal to more professional gigs than the weekend club types. And from what I've seen and learned, I'm afraid I simply can't afford the amplification for that.
Art, thanks again for providing meaningful, relevant thought intensive information!
i would like to raise the F3 to 35hz of the Othorn but i'm afraid it's beyond my knowledge on how to do it the best way. I mean if someone even says, "all you need to do is XYZ." i wouldn't know how to implement that in real world anyway.
You gave a lot of sound theoretical advice in your last post, for sure, but I'm not sure what i'm supposed to do with all that information.
In the end, my goal was to build something that would appeal to more professional gigs than the weekend club types. And from what I've seen and learned, I'm afraid I simply can't afford the amplification for that.
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
Basically, the Othorn could be scaled down in all dimensions to raise the F3 to 35hz, but why bother when the Keystone already has an F3 of 35 Hz, is far easier to build, and is known to work with several types of drivers. Using a pair of Lab 12 drivers driven with around 800 watts per, or a B&C18TBW100-4 driven with 1500-3000 watts you don't have to spend a lot of money on drivers or amplification.
Using either cone choice, a single Keystone driven with a Crest CA-9 can put out more SPL than four "professional" dual 18" ported boxes any day of the week.
Art
Dain,
Basically, the Othorn could be scaled down in all dimensions to raise the F3 to 35hz, but why bother when the Keystone already has an F3 of 35 Hz, is far easier to build, and is known to work with several types of drivers. Using a pair of Lab 12 drivers driven with around 800 watts per, or a B&C18TBW100-4 driven with 1500-3000 watts you don't have to spend a lot of money on drivers or amplification.
Using either cone choice, a single Keystone driven with a Crest CA-9 can put out more SPL than four "professional" dual 18" ported boxes any day of the week.
Art
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
I'm shopping on ebay/craigslist now for Crest CA line of amps. Thanks for the tip Art!!! The Speakerpower plates are very temping as well. Even at the prices listed on the site, they are a good value for the power, let alone the build quality i'm sure is unsurpassed. Would a Crown MA 5000i and it's line be in the same "ballpark" as far as solid sub amp? I know they are stupid expensive new but i'm seeing pretty good prices on ebay.
I'm shopping on ebay/craigslist now for Crest CA line of amps. Thanks for the tip Art!!! The Speakerpower plates are very temping as well. Even at the prices listed on the site, they are a good value for the power, let alone the build quality i'm sure is unsurpassed. Would a Crown MA 5000i and it's line be in the same "ballpark" as far as solid sub amp? I know they are stupid expensive new but i'm seeing pretty good prices on ebay.
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
I have never compared the Crown MA 5000i to the others, so can't say exactly what "ballpark" it is in. Rated at 2500 w per side at 4 ohms, I doubt it would have the kick of a bridged CA9 at 4 ohms, but bridged 4 ohm it is rated 4000 watts, so it may have a bit more output. However, it puts out more power bridged 8 (5000) so it really depends on how the current limiter sounds with a particular load.
I have never compared the Crown MA 5000i to the others, so can't say exactly what "ballpark" it is in. Rated at 2500 w per side at 4 ohms, I doubt it would have the kick of a bridged CA9 at 4 ohms, but bridged 4 ohm it is rated 4000 watts, so it may have a bit more output. However, it puts out more power bridged 8 (5000) so it really depends on how the current limiter sounds with a particular load.
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
I have to defer to your experience, but I must say it's hard to believe one keystone is more spl than 4 dual 18". I have to build it now just so my ears can tell my brain you're right!
I have to defer to your experience, but I must say it's hard to believe one keystone is more spl than 4 dual 18". I have to build it now just so my ears can tell my brain you're right!
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
The BC18SW115 speaker used in the Keystone has two to four times the excursion of some older "pro" speakers, so one cabinet can be equal to anywhere from one to four 2x18" BR cabinets.
The tapped horn design adds around 6 dB output over a bass reflex, allowing it to equal the output of a 2x18" using the same drivers and twice the power.
The BC18SW115 speaker used in the Keystone has two to four times the excursion of some older "pro" speakers, so one cabinet can be equal to anywhere from one to four 2x18" BR cabinets.
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
Why use the 100 vs the 115, other than the weight and price of course?
Why use the 100 vs the 115, other than the weight and price of course?
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
The BCTBW100 is slightly more sensitive, less expensive, and takes slightly less power. The BC18SW115 is lighter, requires slightly more power, but can also go slightly louder.
The BCTBW100 was not available when I designed the Keystone, and I have only simulated it's response, but if price is a concern, it seems the way to go.
The BCTBW100 is slightly more sensitive, less expensive, and takes slightly less power. The BC18SW115 is lighter, requires slightly more power, but can also go slightly louder.
The BCTBW100 was not available when I designed the Keystone, and I have only simulated it's response, but if price is a concern, it seems the way to go.
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
Art, make a 450lit double reflex box for the Sw115. Tune it at about 35Hz and put it against the Keystone, or any other TH. You would be surprised by the results.
Art, make a 450lit double reflex box for the Sw115. Tune it at about 35Hz and put it against the Keystone, or any other TH. You would be surprised by the results.
Re: I have the bug. It's eating all my free time. $2500 budget for DIY sub
Already did, comparing a single to a single. I was surprised.
Tapped Horn Vs. Bass Reflex Case Study - diyAudio
It would take two SW115 and twice the power in a larger BR enclosure to equal the output of the Keystone.
Marjan,
Already did, comparing a single to a single. I was surprised.
Tapped Horn Vs. Bass Reflex Case Study - diyAudio
It would take two SW115 and twice the power in a larger BR enclosure to equal the output of the Keystone.