"I need my acoustic in the subs"

J

Jamin Lynch

Sophomore
Jan 11, 2011
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South Texas
I sometimes run FOH at my local church. They have a nice system, flown 3-way tops with aux fed subs under the stage. Sounds really good. They have a Thursday night service with just vocals and an acoustic guitar. Last Thursday a new "artist" came in and began to set up. I should have seen the red flags as soon as he brings out a giant pedal board and says he needs phantom power. I still haven't figured out what the phantom power is for, it's pasive DI. Oh well, I turn it on and everything seems to be OK. I started to put a monitor out for him and he says he doesn't need it, "I'll work off the mains." More red flags. Half way through the first song during sound check, he stops and asked if his acoustic guitar is in the subwoofers. I replied that I don't usually put an acoustic in the subs, it's not a bass instrument. The subs are crossed over at 80hz. He says, "I can't feel my guitar unless it's in the subs." I said OK I'll put in a little to warm it up a bit. He kept asking for more and more. So I turned up the aux until it started sounding more like a kick drum. I tried tweeking the eq, and added a comp to keep it from thumping. I finally just had to back it off a bit. Then I hear from the stage, "hey, put my guitar back like you had it. I could feel it through the stage, that's the way I like it." I said it doen't sound good out here though. So after a couple of minutes of back and fourth, we compromised.

Now I get a call from the music Pastor at the church that he came in early today to adjust his giutar the way he wants it and I'm not to change it. I said, "What am I supposed to do if it sounds bad?" I just got a funny look.
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Obviously the artist went over your head and your input is not required. Suck it up or throw a fit, whichever makes you happier!

I have put acoustics in the subs before, sometimes just because they needed a little bottom, and other times because they were being used as a percussion instrument.
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Bennett Prescott said:
Obviously the artist went over your head and your input is not required. Suck it up or throw a fit, whichever makes you happier!

I have put acoustics in the subs before, sometimes just because they needed a little bottom, and other times because they were being used as a percussion instrument.
Click to expand...

No percussion work on the acoustic, just a typical acoustic guitar.

I'll often put a little acoustic in the subs if it needs it, but not to the point where it sounds really bad, which is the case here. It's that old story of running sound from stage thing.
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Have him run wireless, if you have a spare handy, so he can hear it from the audience area. Maybe he's used to a poorly built stage that vibrated easily, maybe subs on stage, maybe he just wants to suck out loud. At least that way he'll know how bad he sounds to the audience.
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Evan Kirkendall said:
Easy fix:

"Subs are blown, sorry man."

:)
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Or you could take the opposite approach: crank the sub aux up all the way until the low end howl makes him beg for mercy. Of course, this is assuming your subs are properly limited so they can be hammered without damage.

Greg
 
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Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

This brings to mind the fiddler in a bluegrass band who wanted the 80 hz boosted so he could "hear the wood". Now a guitar goes fairly low, but a fiddle??? Not so much......
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Willy Porter, Leo Kottke, Adrian Legg, Michael Gulezian, John Doyle, Michael Chapdelaine, Michael Whisler...

Prime example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u55G1VGuTfs

If an acoustic guitar player wants his guitar in the subs I put it in the subs and let their talent decide. Not decide because of any preconceived notions I have.

Just because an acoustic guitar player has pedals doesn't mean he's a moron.

How do you know he didn't want it to sound like a kick drum?

I understand it may not sound the way YOU like it, but last I remembered its the artists sound that we're trying to recreate, not what we like.

I'm not saying you're wrong, as the artist may indeed be a moron. But I am saying your bullshit preconceived notion about not putting an acoustic guitar in the subs is absolutely wrong.
 
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Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Some more examples of subby acoustic guitar

Maybe twenty years ago I attended a concert of Lukka Bloom, an Irish Singer/Songwriter.
His FOH guy told me, that they used two way pick ups on the guitars and the low strings pick up was feed to an Octavider.
On stage they had two double 15"/2" wedges for one vocal mike and acoustic guitar, imagine...
The guitar sound on the album "Turf" was reference to me for a long time.

Some might remember Donovan
I did Systech/Babysitting for one show Donovan solo, maybe last year.
His FOH guy wants a monitor guy to deal with Donovans wish to feel the acoustic guitar on stage, in the front mix the subs were turned of :)~:)~:smile:

and third there was a time, when I mixed a lot of Turkish bands,
the Turkish guitar ( Sass or whatever it is spelled ) is also used as percussion instrument, so one needs to create a serious low end out of it

Uwe
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Follow up to the story.

I went in Thursday to run FOH. So I went over to the mixer to check out the settings the guitar player came up with. Wow, it's amazing how all the eq's ended up at the 2 o'clock position...even the mid sweeps. They were all lined up nice and pretty. The gain was cranked way up and the channel fader was way down. The aux for the subs were of coarse turned almost all the way up. The part that made me go Hmmm, was the 100hz HPF was engaged.

So we did a quick sound check and the acoustic was in the red on the meter and the overall sound was not good at all....come on, it's a church, it's supposed to sound like a guitar. I called the guy over to the board and said, "I'm curious how you came up with these settings, maybe I can learn something. It appears you were trying to get a lot of low end in your guitar, so why would you engage the HPF?" He asked, "What's that?" OK so now we all know the guy IS a moron. I explained what it did and suggested we start over and work on the sound. He agreed. So I hooked up a wireless pack for the guitar so he could hear it out front while he played. Here's the comment I've been waiting for, "Man it's sounds a lot different out here. You just set it where you think is best." So I did, and now everybody is happy. And yes, there is some acoustic in the subs. Just enough to warm up the bottom.

Moral to the story:

Let the sound guy do his job.
 
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Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Hello,

Coming late to the sub party....but, in the future you could .... give a seated artist a butt-kicker (he can "feel" his instrument) or, just set up a couple of floor monitors or a small sub.

And Jamin... don't let them get you down.

Hammer
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Jamin Lynch said:
Moral to the story:

Let the sound guy do his job.
Click to expand...
My only question is how many times did he have to take his guitar off, run back to the board to tweak something, run back, reassemble, listen, rinse, and repeat? :)

Nice job turning a lousy situation into a win. Building trust and educating always end up better than climing the authority ladder. Shame on the music pastor for not being willing to walk out there and listen and make a personal judgement during the "sound check" about who is nuts.
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Adam Whetham said:
I'm not saying you're wrong, as the artist may indeed be a moron. But I am saying your bullshit preconceived notion about not putting an acoustic guitar in the subs is absolutely wrong.
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He's not saying you're wrong, he's just saying your opinion is bullshit ;)

The problem with discussing non-technical aspects of reinforcement in these forums is that very few people know whether the poster has an opinion worth considering. When I babysit at FOH I can tell in five minutes whether the BE has an ear worth shit, or maybe does but isn't trying because he's pissed off or frustrated, or is a poser who has the job notwithstanding any technical ability. Here in the world of text, however, the only way I know if someone is talking out of their ass or not is if I have heard their work in person, or have heard good things about it from one of the few forum members I have heard mix a lot and know has a good ear. Having a good ear isn't everything, there are people who are very good at the business of audio and/or very good at the technical side of audio who mix so-so (but not terribly, truth be told if you're a really bad mixer you're probably just incompetent at everything audio). There are also folks who are good at audio in general but have sustained enough hearing damage, or have such bizarre preference in audio, that I know how to take their comments... with a grain of salt.

I think we are a little quick to defend this artist and suggest that Jamin may have poor taste. Think for a second about this situation: We're in a church, we have an acoustic guitarist with an unusual request trying to call house audio from the deck, and Jamin is in a situation where he is plainly not supported by the powers that be. I'm going to bet that the guitarist really is being a fuck wit, and Jamin was making an accurate assessment of the situation. God knows (see, 'cause we're in a church) the sound on stage has nothing to do with the sound in the house... hell, even the sound at monitor position has nothing to do with the sound on stage. The artist may very well have a good ear himself, but is making opinions based on poor information. This is, after all, what good monitor mixing is all about: making changes that satisfy one person in one tiny area... pretty much the opposite of what I do day in and day out as an array guy.

Long story short, I think we're forgetting what Andy Peters used as his signature for years:
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Jamin Lynch said:
Follow up to the story.

snip

So I hooked up a wireless pack for the guitar so he could hear it out front while he played. Here's the comment I've been waiting for, "Man it's sounds a lot different out here. You just set it where you think is best." So I did, and now everybody is happy. And yes, there is some acoustic in the subs. Just enough to warm up the bottom.

Moral to the story:

Let the sound guy do his job.
Click to expand...

I'm amazed, actually. I've been in plenty of situations where that kind of person's judgement of what sounds "good" is so different than mine (notice I didn't say "wrong" even though I meant it... :)) that such an offer would have been a HUGE risk. But in this case, it worked out well. Kudos for your patience and professionalism.
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Jamin Lynch said:
Follow up to the story.

I went in Thursday to run FOH. So I went over to the mixer to check out the settings the guitar player came up with. Wow, it's amazing how all the eq's ended up at the 2 o'clock position...even the mid sweeps. They were all lined up nice and pretty. The gain was cranked way up and the channel fader was way down. The aux for the subs were of coarse turned almost all the way up. The part that made me go Hmmm, was the 100hz HPF was engaged.

So we did a quick sound check and the acoustic was in the red on the meter and the overall sound was not good at all....come on, it's a church, it's supposed to sound like a guitar. I called the guy over to the board and said, "I'm curious how you came up with these settings, maybe I can learn something. It appears you were trying to get a lot of low end in your guitar, so why would you engage the HPF?" He asked, "What's that?" OK so now we all know the guy IS a moron. I explained what it did and suggested we start over and work on the sound. He agreed. So I hooked up a wireless pack for the guitar so he could hear it out front while he played. Here's the comment I've been waiting for, "Man it's sounds a lot different out here. You just set it where you think is best." So I did, and now everybody is happy. And yes, there is some acoustic in the subs. Just enough to warm up the bottom.

Moral to the story:

Let the sound guy do his job.
Click to expand...


You exercised the part of the soundman skill set that is often more important than your ears.
Diplomacy.
Good job!
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Late for the party as well.
Was there any way to put 80hz and below into his monitor? Of course if the monitor system could handle it?

Douglas R. Allen
 
Re: "I need my acoustic in the subs"

Bennett Prescott said:
He's not saying you're wrong, he's just saying your opinion is bullshit ;)

The problem with discussing non-technical aspects of reinforcement in these forums is that very few people know whether the poster has an opinion worth considering....

I think we are a little quick to defend this artist and suggest that Jamin may have poor taste. ...

The artist may very well have a good ear himself, but is making opinions based on poor information. ...

Long story short, I think we're forgetting what Andy Peters used as his signature for years:
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."
Click to expand...

sorry to hack up bennett's post, but you get the basic idea. in short, i think bennett is right on the mark on this one. and frankly, mr. lynch proved himself the consummate professional by working through the situation and in the end achieved good sound AND a happy artist.

as bennett said, these things are very difficult to judge from the distance of a forum. we just don't have all the information we need to make our opinions useful. i don't know. it's almost like those situations where someone tries to 'mix from the stage'.... doesn't that just drive you nutty?
 
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