Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
What is the latency of the TC Helicon "real time" pitch correction?
Jeff,Jeff Babcock;70717 [I said:
What is the latency of the TC Helicon "real time" pitch correction?
IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
- Thread starter Andrew Broughton
- Start date
Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
I have provided IEMs for several events and am amazed as to how much cerumen (ear wax) is on the ear bud sleeves at the end of the show.
Both male and female performers have demonstrated this, with a slight edge going to the men.
The ear wax accumulation on the ear bud sleeves would appear to be enough to reduce the audio. However, I've not put them in my ear afterwards to verify this! :roll:
Additionally, if the cerumen is present on the sleeves, how much is in the ear canal and is that affecting what the person is hearing?
FYI ... I toss the ear bud sleeves after each use.
I have provided IEMs for several events and am amazed as to how much cerumen (ear wax) is on the ear bud sleeves at the end of the show.
Both male and female performers have demonstrated this, with a slight edge going to the men.
The ear wax accumulation on the ear bud sleeves would appear to be enough to reduce the audio. However, I've not put them in my ear afterwards to verify this! :roll:
Additionally, if the cerumen is present on the sleeves, how much is in the ear canal and is that affecting what the person is hearing?
FYI ... I toss the ear bud sleeves after each use.
Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
Simply suggesting that cerumen might be one of the factors at play here.
Simply suggesting that cerumen might be one of the factors at play here.
Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
I agree, moisture and cerumen are both factors.
I'm curious, Andrew, about your plan to record the IEM mixes and play them back for the performers. Were you able to do this?
And George, your theory about occlusion and how it relates to the cartilage is interesting. I've often wondered about the impact of where along the tube the occlusion is placed. For instance, in an ear plug, would it matter if the plug cartridge is at the opening of the ear or deeper in the canal? If an IEM monitor device could be placed a couple mm from the ear drum, would it improve the occlusion?
I agree, moisture and cerumen are both factors.
I'm curious, Andrew, about your plan to record the IEM mixes and play them back for the performers. Were you able to do this?
And George, your theory about occlusion and how it relates to the cartilage is interesting. I've often wondered about the impact of where along the tube the occlusion is placed. For instance, in an ear plug, would it matter if the plug cartridge is at the opening of the ear or deeper in the canal? If an IEM monitor device could be placed a couple mm from the ear drum, would it improve the occlusion?
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Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
Between 1 and 5 ms, depending on the device model. By saying realtime, I was not intending to imply zero latency.
Many of these devices have an onboard preamp and are intended to be used much in the same way as a guitarist uses a stompbox.... Plug your mic into the box and send the output from the box to the PA. Fortunately the preamp in the TC boxes I have encountered seems to be of acceptable quality.
The cheapest offering seems to be the TC Mic Mechanic, which only costs $150. Musicians have been buying these things like crazy around here, and actually, they're a pretty decent little box. I actually bought one, and may buy more. The tuning is quite transparent sounding. Best if you can keep the box with you at the console though, rather than allowing a muso to fiddle with it!
Between 1 and 5 ms, depending on the device model. By saying realtime, I was not intending to imply zero latency.
Many of these devices have an onboard preamp and are intended to be used much in the same way as a guitarist uses a stompbox.... Plug your mic into the box and send the output from the box to the PA. Fortunately the preamp in the TC boxes I have encountered seems to be of acceptable quality.
The cheapest offering seems to be the TC Mic Mechanic, which only costs $150. Musicians have been buying these things like crazy around here, and actually, they're a pretty decent little box. I actually bought one, and may buy more. The tuning is quite transparent sounding. Best if you can keep the box with you at the console though, rather than allowing a muso to fiddle with it!
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Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
I haven't had a chance yet, but I definitely plan to do this.
Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
Only, I think, in overall level, not in the balance of vocal vs rest of mix, which is the crux of my discussion.
Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
Not at all. It is highly likely that it vibrates at some frequencies better than others. If I had to guess, it'd let everything below about 800Hz through much more than above it, but it's just an estimation based on listening to stuff through Jello once for fun.
Not at all. It is highly likely that it vibrates at some frequencies better than others. If I had to guess, it'd let everything below about 800Hz through much more than above it, but it's just an estimation based on listening to stuff through Jello once for fun.
Re: IEMs, Singers and Occlusion
In the case of the players I've worked with, and am discussing, all have very clean ears and clean IEMs. They are using $1000+ IEMs and take very good care of them.
I see that this discussion is from 2013 and it is now well into 2021! Quick background. Small church, I run sound and play guitar and sing in our praise band. We are not loud at all but we got rid of floor wedges several years ago and started using IEM's. We have a Presonus StudioLive board which allows us to control individual mixes with an iphone. Our IEM's are inexpensive. I set up a direct line to individual headphone amps and plug in the ear buds. We have been using Bose ear buds. Not sure the model, but they have a nice fit inside the ear but not totally isolating. I've been very happy. No issues with Occlusion. Well, I broke those earbuds and unfortunately they are discontinued so I bought Shure SE215's. Yanked them out as soon as I tried them. 1. I was not used to the near complete isolation and 2. My head voice was distracting to say the least. the other guitar player uses them as well and he loves them, but he doesn't sing much. Just started my own research on this and found this thread. My takeaway is that maybe it isn't so much about complete isolation and form fitting but rather allowing some of the stage noise to come in. I'm not about to go deaf from turning up the volume to get read of the occlusion and I'm not smart enough to mess with polarity and latency, etc. Just a novice volunteer. These would be great if I didn't sing, After reading the initial statements about cramming the buds in further, I tested a few things. I simply put them back in and started speaking. Then I applied some pressure and it went away. So there is something to be said about a tighter fit somewhere. I tried different tips, but no deal. So for the average Joe in a situation like mine, I think less is more and allowing some sound in is better than keeping it all out. In my opinion, apart from bands that feel the need to have all their amps on stage there isn't much we need to block out anymore. I'm sending my Shure's back and my search will continue. Problem these days is that finding non professional, non bluetooth, non-smart phone headphones is tough.
Thanks for this discussion and if anyone can point me to solutions that may have come up in the last 7 years, let me know.
Thanks for this discussion and if anyone can point me to solutions that may have come up in the last 7 years, let me know.
I have some Shure SE215 buds, and would consider them definitely non-pro grade. I also would hesitate to have buds that don't seal out stage wash.
The need isn't to let in stage wash; the need is to hear all bandmates, and especially to hear the congregation. Both of those are well handled with proper microphones.
See if you can borrow or even buy a few good small diaphragm condensers, and try some good ear buds (Westone UM Pro 30's for example), especially if custom molded.
The need isn't to let in stage wash; the need is to hear all bandmates, and especially to hear the congregation. Both of those are well handled with proper microphones.
See if you can borrow or even buy a few good small diaphragm condensers, and try some good ear buds (Westone UM Pro 30's for example), especially if custom molded.
Well - I rather like SE215s. I'm a bass player and sing - we're a Beach Boy tribute (or were as post covid, we're hanging up the shirts) and our band converter to IEMs in around 2015 - X32, later M32 with P16 mixers and ALL of us, including the drummer have them quieter than we had the wedges. I've got expanding foam earpieces on two pairs, and custom ear moulds on the other two. I bought a pair of 400 series Shures and hated them. Better bass, and louder with the dual transducers, but the 215's actually work better. The others are too strange at the bottom end - they're too bassy, so make the notes I'm playing less distinct. The brightness of the 215's enhances the harmonics. One problem IEMs did give me was that I play a 5 string and at first, I played one song that is very much low end - a semitone away from where I should. As we sing pretty well through every song - you cannot look down at your fingers, so starting on Eb instead of E I could not hear on the 415s. On the 215s I can hear the low notes properly.
As we now all have our own mixes we all get better, not worse monitors. There IS an adjustment to be made. Some things you used to do, you can't - like if you accidentally got a rotten wedge mix, you can sort of hear the guys wedge next door and 'tune out' your own. You can't do this on IEMs, so we could not rely on the sound guys mix. If suddenly the keys volume went down, you are totally stuck. We had a reliable sound guy and we standardised on the channel gains between gigs. The differences would be small and would be made up FOH by the channel faders - NOT gain tweaks, which are a killer on IEMs. We eventually had an X32 rack on stage, so gains could again be tweaked FOH without our rack changing it's gain settings. It took me three or four gigs, the keyboard guy took longer, the guitarist a bit less.The drummer had been using wired IEMs via a normal send for ages so was already acclimatised.
Moulds are the way forward though - once you have them you don't want to go back, although my first set were badly done. When I opened my mouth to sing, my ears changed shape inside and they leaked. Second mould was done with my mouth open while the alginate set - these are perfect and I had a spare set made. They work really well with the 215s.
We always put out an audience mic - it comes up as a channel on the P16s but it is a bit of a mess when mixed in - the biggest killer is when the guitarist shouts in my ear mid song - "skip the next one", and you can't hear him. That's the one thing that doesn't work. I'm pretty good at lipreading now. The other thing you need to do is speak into the mics between songs - if you say something, everyone needs to hear it - BUT - in my mix, I have the keys vocal, the drum vocal and no guitar vocal because his harmonies are often similar to mine and his put me off. I need the keys vocal, and a bit of the drum vocal, but I also don't have any guitar, mainly because even with moulds, his amp is close enough.
It messes up totally when you do festivals with no soundcheck and a monitor guy who doesn't know the difference between bass and guitar. Too often I had to pop my moulds out because relying on them was dire. Our solution was pretty simple - we'd prewire the X32 in the stage rack with cables with XLR Y splitters - so the fast changeover would be easy. we'd each plug our split on the end of the cable into our vocal mics (4) and the drum overhead, bass DI, Keys DI and the guitar cab mic - that's 8 sources. The festival people get their feed as usual, and so does out X32 feeding the P16s. Works like a dream and gives consistency.
I now hate playing without my ears. Wedges have totally gone and at my age, it's better for my hearing. It's really nice being able to have quieter monitoring and at lower levels you sing better!
As we now all have our own mixes we all get better, not worse monitors. There IS an adjustment to be made. Some things you used to do, you can't - like if you accidentally got a rotten wedge mix, you can sort of hear the guys wedge next door and 'tune out' your own. You can't do this on IEMs, so we could not rely on the sound guys mix. If suddenly the keys volume went down, you are totally stuck. We had a reliable sound guy and we standardised on the channel gains between gigs. The differences would be small and would be made up FOH by the channel faders - NOT gain tweaks, which are a killer on IEMs. We eventually had an X32 rack on stage, so gains could again be tweaked FOH without our rack changing it's gain settings. It took me three or four gigs, the keyboard guy took longer, the guitarist a bit less.The drummer had been using wired IEMs via a normal send for ages so was already acclimatised.
Moulds are the way forward though - once you have them you don't want to go back, although my first set were badly done. When I opened my mouth to sing, my ears changed shape inside and they leaked. Second mould was done with my mouth open while the alginate set - these are perfect and I had a spare set made. They work really well with the 215s.
We always put out an audience mic - it comes up as a channel on the P16s but it is a bit of a mess when mixed in - the biggest killer is when the guitarist shouts in my ear mid song - "skip the next one", and you can't hear him. That's the one thing that doesn't work. I'm pretty good at lipreading now. The other thing you need to do is speak into the mics between songs - if you say something, everyone needs to hear it - BUT - in my mix, I have the keys vocal, the drum vocal and no guitar vocal because his harmonies are often similar to mine and his put me off. I need the keys vocal, and a bit of the drum vocal, but I also don't have any guitar, mainly because even with moulds, his amp is close enough.
It messes up totally when you do festivals with no soundcheck and a monitor guy who doesn't know the difference between bass and guitar. Too often I had to pop my moulds out because relying on them was dire. Our solution was pretty simple - we'd prewire the X32 in the stage rack with cables with XLR Y splitters - so the fast changeover would be easy. we'd each plug our split on the end of the cable into our vocal mics (4) and the drum overhead, bass DI, Keys DI and the guitar cab mic - that's 8 sources. The festival people get their feed as usual, and so does out X32 feeding the P16s. Works like a dream and gives consistency.
I now hate playing without my ears. Wedges have totally gone and at my age, it's better for my hearing. It's really nice being able to have quieter monitoring and at lower levels you sing better!
Thanks guys for adding this. Since my post I did some more research since I didn't really know how to ask Google for help before. There's some interesting info from hearing aid specialists and moulds and maybe even ventilation is what needs to happen.
Bottom line for me is that we are a small church and all instruments are direct in to the board except drums of course. No amps. So our area is pretty quiet anyway. In fact, a couple people only use one ear bud. They don't like being so isolated. Anyway, I haven't priced getting custom moulds, but sounds pretty expensive. Just wish I could find something similar to what I currently have without a damn mic built in.
Bottom line for me is that we are a small church and all instruments are direct in to the board except drums of course. No amps. So our area is pretty quiet anyway. In fact, a couple people only use one ear bud. They don't like being so isolated. Anyway, I haven't priced getting custom moulds, but sounds pretty expensive. Just wish I could find something similar to what I currently have without a damn mic built in.
Running one bud in & one out can actually be dangerous for the performers as there is a tendency to run that one bud louder than would be needed if they used both.
A better solution to the isolation issue is to put up an ambience mic to capture a bit of the room sound and mix that back into the in-ear mix.
HTH
David
I’m a lead singer in 2 working bands and really need to resolve the occlusion effect problem in my vocal. what about having an ambient mic on the stage that is brought into my IEM mix?
Any experiences, downfalls w this idea?
Any experiences, downfalls w this idea?
There are basically only two ways to reduce or remove the occlusion effect- either vent the earmold, or locate the transducer(s) deeper in the ear canal, preventing the sound vibrations produced by your own voice from being developed in the ear canal.
An ambient mic will reduce the feeling of isolation you may experience with closed ear molds, but won't reduce the occlusion effect. Downsides of the ambient mic may be a general smear of the mix- there is no one place on stage likely to provide a balanced mix, and time/phase differences between the direct mix and ambient mic pick up cause comb filtering (peaks and dips) in the response.
New guy here. Hi. Very interesting discussion, including people who know what they are talking about and/or have real experience and/or qualifications in the various related fields. Nice.
A bit of background on me:
I'm an IT guy, for a communications radio company, a guitarist & vocalist who mixes from stage, radio ham, radio servicing trained, one-time line inspector at Racal, so I have a mix of related experience/s and knowledge but not expert in any one thing here.
I play in a band and 2 duos and I’m heading for 70 years old, if that makes a difference to anything, and been playing electric rock&roll and covers guitar for more than 50 of those, mixing as well for 25 or so. Tinnitus began 20+ years ago and I began trying various earplugs. One pair of those, perhaps almost before there were ‘musicians’ earplugs, succeeded in making my voice (occlusion problem) go away. Sadly, I didn’t realise the significance back then because I supposed my experience was the same as everyone else’s. I’ve had in-ears more recently, maybe 10 years, since moving to a silent stage. They are/were great, in many ways but it seems I have big occlusion problems, so bad that singing causes ever-increasing tinnitus. That's still getting worse and I need a solution fast or I have to quit playing.
Right ear is a bit deaf, so left is favoured but that one (significant tinnitus) is very sensitive and increasing tinnitus is a real problem, so vented plugs will presumably let too much stage ambience in, and therefore probably wouldn’t do the job, I guess. We do have a ‘silent stage’, with no amps or drums – it’s all out front - but that's still too much, despite running just a few hundred watts out there and not very loudly.
I’m now using a £1,200 ($1500 ?) Bose noise-cancelling aircraft headset, sending almost nothing to that ear, to get by at the moment but somehow my voice is still very loud in that ear. The noise cancelling in there is pretty good but they are clearly still not doing the whole job for me.
I’ve seen a couple of health service ENT’s and audiologists but all they do is measure what I CAN hear, rather than assess my perception of what I DO hear, without addressing the sensitivity or occlusion issues at all. I did get a Hyper-Acusis form to fill in but something tells me that’s about an imagined or psychological over-sensitivity. My left-ear tinnitus actually gets louder, very easily. Right does not. I was given a hearing-aid-like device, intended to make a small noise, apparently for brain-training. I don’t really need to learn to ignore it; I need to stop it getting worse but I can’t persuade those people to step outside their ‘normal problems’ training.
I currently imagine that I need deep, tight in-ears on stage. Finding someone to make those is not easy.
SO - thanks if you've kept up so far.
Speaking from the bad side of the fence, it seems to me that pretty much everyone's experience of IEM's is different and you can't even analyse what they hear. You all well know that it's affected by occlusion, certainly, and mixed in with latency, therefore phase difference, IEM quality, level and very much fit, as well as their hearing issues. Because of that, the ambient, whether intended or leaked, where on the stage or in relation to FOH you are, and therefore whether in- or out- of phase, makes for endless combinations of variables. My bass player complains that he can't hear enough bass in his in-ears. I plugged mine into his pack and was blown away by the bass level, so, at a guess, he must have a bad seal and/or they are antiphase with the sub on his side, which he stands behind. His IEMs are not vented, not deliberately, anyway.
On the point of reversing the mic phase, that will affect both FOH and monitoring phase. I wonder about reversing the IEM signal and then trying it (both ways). I do wonder what phase we are presented with, when standing behind FOH. That probably changes with frequency and the directivity of the cabinet(s) and more. Add room reflections and it's surely a muddle and not simply a 'fact'.
As for those who leave out one earpiece, they must surely want the other to match the level of the open ear. I've seen it said that they often want 4x the normal IEM level, in that case. Not a great idea.
My experience with the Bose headset is that excessive 'head voice' is perhaps not solely about occlusion, for me anyway. In fact, I played a completely unamplified duo gig recently, just my acoustic guitar (not a loud one) and our two voices, which still caused me increased tinnitus trouble for several days. No ear candy of any kind was used. Bizarre.
I hope my contribution adds something for you folks and maybe I'll pick up a new angle or confirmation of an old one.
Jerry
A bit of background on me:
I'm an IT guy, for a communications radio company, a guitarist & vocalist who mixes from stage, radio ham, radio servicing trained, one-time line inspector at Racal, so I have a mix of related experience/s and knowledge but not expert in any one thing here.
I play in a band and 2 duos and I’m heading for 70 years old, if that makes a difference to anything, and been playing electric rock&roll and covers guitar for more than 50 of those, mixing as well for 25 or so. Tinnitus began 20+ years ago and I began trying various earplugs. One pair of those, perhaps almost before there were ‘musicians’ earplugs, succeeded in making my voice (occlusion problem) go away. Sadly, I didn’t realise the significance back then because I supposed my experience was the same as everyone else’s. I’ve had in-ears more recently, maybe 10 years, since moving to a silent stage. They are/were great, in many ways but it seems I have big occlusion problems, so bad that singing causes ever-increasing tinnitus. That's still getting worse and I need a solution fast or I have to quit playing.
Right ear is a bit deaf, so left is favoured but that one (significant tinnitus) is very sensitive and increasing tinnitus is a real problem, so vented plugs will presumably let too much stage ambience in, and therefore probably wouldn’t do the job, I guess. We do have a ‘silent stage’, with no amps or drums – it’s all out front - but that's still too much, despite running just a few hundred watts out there and not very loudly.
I’m now using a £1,200 ($1500 ?) Bose noise-cancelling aircraft headset, sending almost nothing to that ear, to get by at the moment but somehow my voice is still very loud in that ear. The noise cancelling in there is pretty good but they are clearly still not doing the whole job for me.
I’ve seen a couple of health service ENT’s and audiologists but all they do is measure what I CAN hear, rather than assess my perception of what I DO hear, without addressing the sensitivity or occlusion issues at all. I did get a Hyper-Acusis form to fill in but something tells me that’s about an imagined or psychological over-sensitivity. My left-ear tinnitus actually gets louder, very easily. Right does not. I was given a hearing-aid-like device, intended to make a small noise, apparently for brain-training. I don’t really need to learn to ignore it; I need to stop it getting worse but I can’t persuade those people to step outside their ‘normal problems’ training.
I currently imagine that I need deep, tight in-ears on stage. Finding someone to make those is not easy.
SO - thanks if you've kept up so far.
Speaking from the bad side of the fence, it seems to me that pretty much everyone's experience of IEM's is different and you can't even analyse what they hear. You all well know that it's affected by occlusion, certainly, and mixed in with latency, therefore phase difference, IEM quality, level and very much fit, as well as their hearing issues. Because of that, the ambient, whether intended or leaked, where on the stage or in relation to FOH you are, and therefore whether in- or out- of phase, makes for endless combinations of variables. My bass player complains that he can't hear enough bass in his in-ears. I plugged mine into his pack and was blown away by the bass level, so, at a guess, he must have a bad seal and/or they are antiphase with the sub on his side, which he stands behind. His IEMs are not vented, not deliberately, anyway.
On the point of reversing the mic phase, that will affect both FOH and monitoring phase. I wonder about reversing the IEM signal and then trying it (both ways). I do wonder what phase we are presented with, when standing behind FOH. That probably changes with frequency and the directivity of the cabinet(s) and more. Add room reflections and it's surely a muddle and not simply a 'fact'.
As for those who leave out one earpiece, they must surely want the other to match the level of the open ear. I've seen it said that they often want 4x the normal IEM level, in that case. Not a great idea.
My experience with the Bose headset is that excessive 'head voice' is perhaps not solely about occlusion, for me anyway. In fact, I played a completely unamplified duo gig recently, just my acoustic guitar (not a loud one) and our two voices, which still caused me increased tinnitus trouble for several days. No ear candy of any kind was used. Bizarre.
I hope my contribution adds something for you folks and maybe I'll pick up a new angle or confirmation of an old one.
Jerry
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My move to IEMs was interesting. I soon realised that there was simply no need to have them very loud because I had proper moulds so my experience was that it was much nicer and quality was always compromised for volume. At the time I started using them, I'd got a big wedge, and my bass went through an 8 x 10" cab, often turned up very loud so I could hear it on stage. I knew for certain, I needed to hear the thud against my body. I was totally wrong! I started turning it down, and didn't notice. Nor did the rest of the band, and then I did a few gigs with it on 0, and still nobody noticed, because my bass was a source on their IEM mixer. Then I did a gig without it on the stage, and the keys player said he needed it as it was how he felt the bass and I pointed out it hadn't been on for a few weeks. From that moment, I knew IEMs were the best. Oddly - one channel on the mixer was an audience mic, and I didn't need that I discovered.
I use an audience mic but it's ducked when e-drums or keyboard (choose for your band setup) are playing - a non-microphonic source, anyway.