Intermod distortion 2-way vs 3-way

Re: Intermod distortion 2-way vs 3-way

Thanks for all the info so far - I'm learning a lot. Thanks Peter for the Neumann article. Intuitively it makes sense - the more cone motion you have, the more potential for intermod. Use larger drivers and less excursion is required for the same air movement.

How does this play out in ultra-long excursion boxes like Vertec 4886 where a pair of 6.5" drivers are working down to 70Hz?
 
Re: Intermod distortion 2-way vs 3-way

Thanks for all the info so far - I'm learning a lot. Thanks Peter for the Neumann article. Intuitively it makes sense - the more cone motion you have, the more potential for intermod. Use larger drivers and less excursion is required for the same air movement.

How does this play out in ultra-long excursion boxes like Vertec 4886 where a pair of 6.5" drivers are working down to 70Hz?
TJ,

Intermodulation distortion does not become objectionable until the speaker is driven beyond Xmax, cone travel length in itself is not the problem.
A small speaker can still sound clean up to Xmax, but what is often overlooked is a ported cabinet has it's excursion minima at Fb, which is about as low (or below) where the low crossover point would usually be set, while the excursion maximum occurs about 1/3 octave above Fb.

Unfortunately, most manufacturers are more concerned with the speaker not burning up than sounding good at high power, which has led to many designs where the speaker can be driven way beyond Xmax at well below rated power.

Although rated SPL may be accurate for such a speaker, it may sound like total gack at 6-10 dB less level than rated for.

The "gargling" IM sound occurs in vocal reproduction when low frequency tones cause the cone to exceed Xmax. As the loudspeaker excursion exceeds Xmax, the amount of voice coil that is within the magnetic gap decreases. As the cone movement takes the voice coil outside the gap, the amount of force produced by the voice coil, for a given input, decreases, and distortion increases radically.

To visualize what occurs in IM, think of a speaker playing 100 Hz and 1000 Hz tones.
For each in and out motion the 100 Hz tone causes, the cone is also making 10 smaller in and out motions from the 1K tone.
When the 100 Hz signal is strong enough to push the coil outside the gap (exceeds Xmax) the 1000 Hz signal no longer is reproduced properly at the end of the inner and outer stroke.
The amplitude (SPL) of the 1000 Hz tone is actually reduced at either end of the 100 Hz stroke, the period (length) of the 1000 Hz distortion is modulated by the 100 Hz signal.
A lower low note makes for an longer modulation period, and our ears will notice more “gargling” if the modulation tone was 60 or 70 Hz than 100.

Doubling Xmax requires twice the magnetic gap, but allows for 6 dB more output without “gargling”.
It also costs a lot of money to do, often considerably more than two speakers with half the Xmax that would put out equal SPL using half the power.

There is no replacement for displacement, whether in cars or speaker cabinets we will always pay a premium for large displacement in a small package.

For some, like Dave Rat, not having to carry separate PA for vocals and instruments to avoid IM made it worth the added expense of a single PA that had the required displacement.

For others, not pushing the PA the last 6 dB it was capable of before burning up might be an adequate solution...

Art
 
Re: Intermod distortion 2-way vs 3-way

I'm doing some long range planning of replacing my current system (EAW JFL - 2-way, dual 10" plus horn) with probably some kind of small to medium format line array. One of the biggest sound quality problems that I perceive - or at least think I perceive - with my current 2-way system, is intermod distortion. The symptom is as follows: Simple tracks are crystal clear - solo vocals for example, but when the band backing kicks in, the vocals sound a little distorted. I'm very confident that this is not a damaged speaker issue, and I'm confident that while this phenomenon gets worse with volume, I'm not anywhere close to pushing the system into non-linearity. The system sounds fine in use - this is more noticable in shop testing with well-recorded tracks. Anyway, assuming I'm correct that I'm hearing intermod distortion , how much of a difference does the third bandpass make? Most of the choices I'm considering (RCF NX-L23A, RCF HDL-20A, Nexo S8/S12, etc.) are all 2-way boxes. Will these have similar intermod issues to my current system? Does something like the RCF TTL33-A (3-way - dual 8" acting as a woofer, single 8" midrange plus tweeters) minimize this since I'm not putting 800Hz on the same cone as 70Hz? Are the intermod issues as significant on the horn - e.g having 4K modulated by 1.2K a significant issue?

Thanks for any help in understanding this better.

I can't speak to the others but the S8 and S12 do not have a big issue with this. Perhaps the limiting on those systems is the answer. If you already have GF settings I can only assume you are in fact driving the speakers too hard. The Nexo is VERY scalable. As for cost, the output per dollar investment is better with the S12. I install a few systems per year and the cost of S12 or S8 vs SPL has been thoroughly explored. To get the same line length you need fewer S12 boxes and those fewer boxes can achieve more output than the same length of S8. I use S8 quite a bit for my regular work. I use S12 a few times a year. I prefer S12 unless weight is an issue. If I were stupid enough to buy speakers (no offense to all you guys buying speakers ha ha), then I would either go with d&b V or Q or T, or Nexo S12 or D.
 
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Re: Intermod distortion 2-way vs 3-way

Thanks for all the info so far - I'm learning a lot. Thanks Peter for the Neumann article. Intuitively it makes sense - the more cone motion you have, the more potential for intermod. Use larger drivers and less excursion is required for the same air movement.

How does this play out in ultra-long excursion boxes like Vertec 4886 where a pair of 6.5" drivers are working down to 70Hz?

Here are a couple of more photos of some T12s and T4s (ignorethe Vdosc in one of the pictures)
 

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