Internal Bass Drum Mic

Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Phil Lewandowski said:
Thanks for the input guys,

Phil; He is planning to mount it to a sort of cushion underneath it, so do you think that will be enough to help with the vibrations?


Bennett; it seems like the reason he is leaning towards a boundary type mic is to avoid the clutter of a large mic, and apparatus and such in the bass drum. The reason being is he is getting a little older and this kit he just bought is becoming his "lightweight" kit when he has to lug it around himself. I have used a single original SM91 in 2 of his kits and with almost no EQ gotten very workable sound. (Maybe a 3dB boost below 100hz.) He tunes his kick drums to have a very round sound with lots of "round" thump so to say.

From the sounds of it, this newer beta91a is much closer to the original SM91 than the original beta91 was, so I like to hear that.

In that case are there any other boundary type mics that you would suggest over the Beta91a since he mentioned his first choice isn't trying to chase down a SM91.


Thanks much,

Phil

P.S. This isn't really "forever and ever," just looking for a convenient, lightweight, and non-obtrusive way to get a decent sounding mic in there.
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The new 91a has the "kick drum" eq built into the preamp already-that 200-400ish scoop. The other thing I like is the mic takes a regular XLR connector right at the plate, no more wee little cable/connector.

I would think more than anything else is to audition the mic(actually audition a few), and go with the best sounding set up-if it comes down to another mic, May has mounted versions of the popular drum mics available for internal and permanent mounting inside a drum.

I've been using an original SM91 lately, and find it fine so far-the big thing is space savings, along with my e604's on other drums in a kit on real small stages. Quicker to set up too.

Best regards,

John
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Thanks all, he is planning to give this B91a a demo on a gig or two before actually outright purchasing and installing, I will plan to have him go through all the new replies and see what he thinks so far!

Thanks all for your help so far,
Phil
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

In preference over the May system (which reportedly can come loose and needs occasional tightening etc) I went with the Kelly SHU. http://www.kellyshu.com/

It's basically a suspension mount inside the drum (in my case a 22" DW). I mounted a Heil PR40 on it, and am VERY pleased with the result.

The SHU is quite inexpensive (around $50)
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Well, this conversation went from a how to do something to a sounds debate fast! Love it.

I worked with a band for a few years where the drummer used a closed head system. What we did was take a flange and 6 inch goose neck and mounted the D112 directly in the center of the drum. Then we drilled a hole to install a D series connector on the shell so it only needed an xlr. This worked great for years, playing 4-5 shows a week. Your guy just needs to be willing to drill some holes in his kit.

The big considerations we had was of course sound. The D112 was the mic we wanted to use and it lends itself to internal placement. The next big thing is stability of the mic in travel. The 91 didn't really mount well and as Bennett stated, it would have only been part of the sound. The 91 by itself would have been inappropriate for this Americana sound. Other large diaphram mics want to live outside of the drum, although you could put a 52 in there.
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Kip Conner said:
Well, this conversation went from a how to do something to a sounds debate fast! Love it.

I worked with a band for a few years where the drummer used a closed head system. What we did was take a flange and 6 inch goose neck and mounted the D112 directly in the center of the drum. Then we drilled a hole to install a D series connector on the shell so it only needed an xlr. This worked great for years, playing 4-5 shows a week. Your guy just needs to be willing to drill some holes in his kit.

The big considerations we had was of course sound. The D112 was the mic we wanted to use and it lends itself to internal placement. The next big thing is stability of the mic in travel. The 91 didn't really mount well and as Bennett stated, it would have only been part of the sound. The 91 by itself would have been inappropriate for this Americana sound. Other large diaphram mics want to live outside of the drum, although you could put a 52 in there.
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Yeah, we are pretty much down to the choices of the e901 and Beta91a, or another choice of a boundary mic as it will be very simplistic and the least amount of weight added as possible.

He also is at the point where it would take a lot for him to put any holes in the shell, as he has the hardware to get the XLR out of the drum without any drilling done with placing a jack coming out of top.


Thanks,
Phil
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

forgive me for rabbit trailing off the rabbit trail...

bennett's 'damed kickport' reference along with the rest of this thread made me want to share. i'm working with 4 different drummer's in a church. i've got one 45-ish drummer who fancies himself a sound engineer. he's got the 'shu' mounted beta91 inside his high dollar kick along with his 'damned kickport' and a beta 52. he's spent hours tuning it and tweaking it and every time i have to remix a sunday [we multi-track everything] it's hell on earth getting that drum to sound like anything. i've also got a 25-ish drummer with a beatup bargain basement kick [that he admits he has no idea how to tune...] with an old baby pillow thrown inside. i lay a 91 on it, and put that awful 52 in the hole. poof, instant rock solid kick drum sound. no fuss, no muss.

sometimes the worst enemy a sound guy can have is an 'educated' drummer... :)
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

The best experiences I have ever had with no-hole kick drums for jazz was with an ATM25. One guy had a set of Gretch Broadkasters that he said was from the 1940's (I have no idea since I know little about drum history) but he assured me there would be no clamps, no internal mics, and don't put a scratch on his babies. Shorty boom stand with an ATM25 on the front head 2-3" inches in from the 5 o'clock position and pointed to the middle worked wonders, and he was pretty damn picky.
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

brian maddox said:
forgive me for rabbit trailing off the rabbit trail...

bennett's 'damed kickport' reference along with the rest of this thread made me want to share. i'm working with 4 different drummer's in a church. i've got one 45-ish drummer who fancies himself a sound engineer. he's got the 'shu' mounted beta91 inside his high dollar kick along with his 'damned kickport' and a beta 52. he's spent hours tuning it and tweaking it and every time i have to remix a sunday [we multi-track everything] it's hell on earth getting that drum to sound like anything. i've also got a 25-ish drummer with a beatup bargain basement kick [that he admits he has no idea how to tune...] with an old baby pillow thrown inside. i lay a 91 on it, and put that awful 52 in the hole. poof, instant rock solid kick drum sound. no fuss, no muss.

sometimes the worst enemy a sound guy can have is an 'educated' drummer... :)
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"no fuss, no muss..." No tone... A truly educated drummer should make your job easier if he cares about what the audience hears as "his sound".

I can't ignore a suggestion it could ever be fine, to not tune drums for obvious reasons, but I expect the kick to be far less demanding in this regard. The way they are typically played, is with a fixed beater position exciting mainly the fundamental resonance series (thump sound), so poor lug match (head clearing) will not usually express as a mish-mash of overtone series like from a poorly tuned tom (not that drums are ever not somewhat dissonant but the difference between simple overtone series and noise).

The kickport accessory generates some extra lower frequency content than normal for a given size drum head, which could be lower than a marginal SR system can easily handle (or not). Perhaps interesting for acoustic gigs to make your bass drum sound 10' tall, (and perhaps for recording) but not where I'd try to focus for tight reinforced drum sounds.

JR
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

John Roberts said:
"no fuss, no muss..." No tone... A truly educated drummer should make your job easier if he cares about what the audience hears as "his sound".
JR
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i think key word is 'should'. :) i think in this case the drummer is really only concerned with what sound HE hears. what he ends up with is a LOT of 'tone'. which is great if he's the only instrument playing. but when there are 8 other people on stage, all that 'tone' clutters everything up.

and for the record, i wasn't advocating not tuning the drum. i just found it ironic that the basic 'tighten up the head and throw a pillow in it' approach actually got better results. and i have to say that this young drummer i'm referring to probably knows more than he lets on. i haven't seen a guy with his level of natural talent in a long time. i suspect that while he may not 'know' how to tune his drums, he in reality probably does. even if only by instinct at this point....
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

brian maddox said:
forgive me for rabbit trailing off the rabbit trail...

bennett's 'damed kickport' reference along with the rest of this thread made me want to share. i'm working with 4 different drummer's in a church. i've got one 45-ish drummer who fancies himself a sound engineer. he's got the 'shu' mounted beta91 inside his high dollar kick along with his 'damned kickport' and a beta 52. he's spent hours tuning it and tweaking it and every time i have to remix a sunday [we multi-track everything] it's hell on earth getting that drum to sound like anything. i've also got a 25-ish drummer with a beatup bargain basement kick [that he admits he has no idea how to tune...] with an old baby pillow thrown inside. i lay a 91 on it, and put that awful 52 in the hole. poof, instant rock solid kick drum sound. no fuss, no muss.

sometimes the worst enemy a sound guy can have is an 'educated' drummer... :)
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I'm confused. A Beta 91 doesn't have a mic mount so there's no way it 's mounted to the Kelly Shu unless glue is involved. Mounting the Beta 52 on the Shu makes sense.

IMHO, IF a Kickport is used, the drummer needs to realize it's to affect the sound OUTSIDE the bass drum. So it won't help the pickup of an internal mic, if anything I'd think it'd have a negative impact on the INTERNAL mic.

Personally, I started using the Kelly Shu a few months back with a D6, resonant bass head has a 4" port and I just run the mic cable out the port. Works fine for me.

Mike McNany
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Mike McNany said:
I'm confused. A Beta 91 doesn't have a mic mount so there's no way it 's mounted to the Kelly Shu unless glue is involved. Mounting the Beta 52 on the Shu makes sense.

Mike McNany
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the drummer in question fashioned an adapter so that the beta 91 could be mounted on the shoe. i don't remember exactly how he did it but it's been pretty much 'permanent' so whatever he did was plenty secure. i suspect velcro was involved somewhere...
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

brian maddox said:
the drummer in question fashioned an adapter so that the beta 91 could be mounted on the shoe. i don't remember exactly how he did it but it's been pretty much 'permanent' so whatever he did was plenty secure. i suspect velcro was involved somewhere...
Click to expand...

Let's see. A boundary mic mounted so it's in the relatively open air (center of drum) and could be oriented in ANY direction dependent on chosen rigging points for the SHU. And it apparently sounds like crap. Makes me go, "Hmmmm?"

Mike McNany
 
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