Lumbar Array?

Re: Lumbar Array?

Tim Weaver said:
Any more guesses?
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A possibility would be as Jens said-but probably not the way he thought of it.

If only the low freq part of the lower part of the boxes was being used, then the direction of the cancellation would be towards the stage-not behind the cluster as a normal "cardiod" configuration would be..

The spacing would be about right for the upper bass freq to try to keep some of that energy off of the stage.

That could be good. HOWEVER the main direction of those freq would be in the opposite direction-or towards the ceiling-where you ALSO don't want energy bouncing around.

So the upper freq (mids/highs) would be "pointed" in the right direction, but the lower mids/upper bass, would not be. So I would suspect the overall coverage would not be as expected/desired.

As with many thing audio, when you "try" to fix one problem-you can do that-but you create another problem-that you may not want.

It is all about compromise and what is more important.

Of course I could be completely wrong-but this is based on the very limited information supplied for the "project".
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

To add insult to injury: those EAW cabinets have a gawdawful rear LF lobe when used in a conventional manner. As they are situated here it is quite an acoustic stew that has been brewed.
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

Ivan Beaver said:
I did not read any "reason" why he did it-or what the "theory" is behind the "design".

More information about the actual layout is needed.
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To me it seems obvious. He's trying to simulate room reverberation in an acoustically dead hall, including a bit of the reverberation that the orchestra would normally get when playing in a band shell. From what he wrote and what he's done, that's the only logical reason.
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

Andrew Broughton said:
To me it seems obvious. He's trying to simulate room reverberation in an acoustically dead hall, including a bit of the reverberation that the orchestra would normally get when playing in a band shell. From what he wrote and what he's done, that's the only logical reason.
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Grant money solution: "lumbar array"
Practical solution: Eventide 3000
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

I think the Bose comment is spot on.

He is trying to fill the hall with reflected sound, to help cover the corners that the main speakers cant.
Also, it is too sterile sounding for him, so he is roomifying the sound more, and also stagifying the sound more, by adding these reflections back into the mics.
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

Jack Arnott said:
I think the Bose comment is spot on.

He is trying to fill the hall with reflected sound, to help cover the corners that the main speakers cant.
Also, it is too sterile sounding for him, so he is roomifying the sound more, and also stagifying the sound more, by adding these reflections back into the mics.
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There are a number of systems out there that are acoustic "enhancers.

HOWEVER one thing that they all have in common (and NOT in common with this setup) is that they use very low Q speakers (ie wide coverage angles-NOT narrow).

The use of narrow pattern speakers (and especially ones that are narrow at some freq and wide at others (as a short line will do) will provide very erratic coverage/reflections around the room.

The idea is to provide a more omni type source (as most natural acoustic sounds are) so that the reflections are more diffuse sounding and "scatter" around the room more. Narrow pattern speakers won't do this.

Yes you can do "something", but how effective is the final result.

The systems I have worked with that used wide dispertion speakers and properly setup work quite well. It takes a lot of DSP and amplifier channels however.

It ALSO takes lots of speakers placed all around the room-so that the individual speakers act as the reflective source.

It is NOT just a matter of adding some "reverb" to the mix. The "systems" use mics over the audience to "pull" the audience into the experience. Simp.y adding a reverb unit to the stage instruments is NOT the same thing-and the "experience" is quite different.
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

I have to wonder, have any of you critics actually heard the system or are you guilty of hearing with your eyes?
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

Chuck Simon said:
I have to wonder, have any of you critics actually heard the system or are you guilty of hearing with your eyes?
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Like the audience members on the front few rows of the venue, they will definitely have to resort to seeing the sound system, because they are not going to be hearing a lot :lol:
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

Chuck Simon said:
I have to wonder, have any of you critics actually heard the system or are you guilty of hearing with your eyes?
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I'd wager that nobody participating has heard it, including you & me. We have the designer's words as to the nature of the installation (but not so much the arrays in the picture). The rest is speculation based on the physics of time and some knowledge of the product pictured. If you have more to offer, please post.

Anyone in that part of world who can give us a report?
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

Per Søvik said:
Like the audience members on the front few rows of the venue, they will definitely have to resort to seeing the sound system, because they are not going to be hearing a lot :lol:
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Maybe it's just an enhancement system, in that people close to the stage are listening to the stage sound acoustically like a normal orchestra show. The PA is there to cover the areas that aren't acoustically covered as well as creating simulated ambiance. I know nothing more than the quote, and pictures, but that would be my guess.
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

As far as I can tell, Ivan Brusic and Ivan Beaver are not the same person. If they were, it would be Ivan Dabar (actually spelled "дабар").
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

It's my thought that, while the bottom 2 boxes are in fact plugged in, I think they are only stage (wing) monitors. Fold back for the edges where possible some choir might be singing.

But what I believe the real reason is, is that they couldn't rig front and back motors for some reason and had to use the reverse curve to get the FOH mains pointing somewhere towards the audience. Those backwards facing cabs are ballast. I think once they got them up and saw where they were pointing they decided to use them for monitors as well.


If they wanted more ambient/reflected/room sound they would have all 4 cabs powered up I think.
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

Jack Arnott said:
That was my thought on the first picture, but after that it seemed they were not pointed right to use for that.
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Agreed. It looks as if 3 are actually plugged in (but of course we do not know the processing and maybe the upper box(s) are just using the low section.

But in the second photo it "appears" as if they are not pointed anywhere near any performers on stage-but it could be the angle of the photo.
 
Re: Lumbar Array?

Tim Weaver said:
It could also be that the bottom boxes are "subs". Or at least extra lows in a house that has no subs on the floor. I still say that if that were the case that all 4 reverse boxes would be plugged in..
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The 3 bottom boxes are EAW KF761s, the upper ones KF760s.
 
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