Need SUB help...

Re: Need SUB help...

Silas Pradetto said:
The difference between a bridged (or even stereo) low-quality amp and a pro-quality, class D or I amp of the same power, is nothing short of huge in my experience. The overall power may not be much more, but the vastly better sound quality and cone control is beyond worth it in my opinion. Not to mention the limiters allow one to hit the subs much harder without fear of blowing them up, getting every last ounce of output from them.
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Silas,

For 30 years before you were even a sparkle in your parents' eyes, concerts have been had all around the world with excellent results using "big iron" amps. PWM amps are not essential to achieving hi-fi sounding low end. While I'm fairly the RMX series takes some short cuts to reach the price point they are at I've tested them myself on a bench with a scope, multimeter, et al. and they will put out their rated power.

That said, PWM amps, especially those with an SMPS will be much less suceptible to poor power conditions simply due to efficiency. Most every venue I've worked locally must have stiff power because I've never had any trouble getting results from my mix of RMX and Yorkville non-PWM amps (4050 included).
 
Re: Need SUB help...

Ryan Lantzy said:
Silas,

For 30 years before you were even a sparkle in your parents' eyes, concerts have been had all around the world with excellent results using "big iron" amps. PWM amps are not essential to achieving hi-fi sounding low end. While I'm fairly the RMX series takes some short cuts to reach the price point they are at I've tested them myself on a bench with a scope, multimeter, et al. and they will put out their rated power.

That said, PWM amps, especially those with an SMPS will be much less susceptible to poor power conditions simply due to efficiency. Most every venue I've worked locally must have stiff power because I've never had any trouble getting results from my mix of RMX and Yorkville non-PWM amps (4050 included).
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Ryan, I'm not disputing that big iron amps can (and do!) sound good; I'm simply saying that the new stuff sounds better. The old Macrotech 2400 sounds great on subs, even at a low power point, but RMX2450 doesn't sound nearly as good, even though it's at about the same power point. So agreed, there is definitely something to say about high quality amps vs. lower quality amps; watts aren't "just watts" in many cases, it seems.

My original rig used all QSC RMX amps, bridged into SRX718 subs. Going from a pair of RMX2450 on dedicated 20-amp circuits to a single I-Tech on one circuit yielded such a dramatic increase in sound quality and level that it was unbelievable. Maybe it was just the amp quality, and not the amp topology. Who knows.

Have you ever done a side-by-side comparison yourself? You might be surprised how much better something that already sounds good could sound.

PS-I haven't tried any of the new "low end" class D amps yet, to see if they still sound good. From Evan's review of the Peavey IPR1600, it sounded like they do pretty well with bass, just not difficult loads.
 
Re: Need SUB help...

Silas Pradetto said:
Ryan, I'm not disputing that big iron amps can (and do!) sound good; I'm simply saying that the new stuff sounds better. The old Macrotech 2400 sounds great on subs, even at a low power point, but RMX2450 doesn't sound nearly as good, even though it's at about the same power point. So agreed, there is definitely something to say about high quality amps vs. lower quality amps; watts aren't "just watts" in many cases, it seems.

My original rig used all QSC RMX amps, bridged into SRX718 subs. Going from a pair of RMX2450 on dedicated 20-amp circuits to a single I-Tech on one circuit yielded such a dramatic increase in sound quality and level that it was unbelievable. Maybe it was just the amp quality, and not the amp topology. Who knows.

Have you ever done a side-by-side comparison yourself? You might be surprised how much better something that already sounds good could sound.
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No but unless you've done double blind ABX testing I don't think your anecdotal evidence means jack squat. What I do know is that no amplifier is a magic bullet, and more than likely an underperforming amplifier driven to an extreme (bridged into 4ohm on sub-woofer duty) could probably be helped a lot by feeding it with thicker copper (if it's not already thermaling out).

In Vinny's case we are talking about an amp run in stereo 4ohm doing what it was designed to do, power subs.
 
Re: Need SUB help...

Hello Vinny,
As I tell my customers, I am glad to spend your money. So, here goes.

If you like the Yorkville better, sell the EV and get more Yorkville.
For one thing, you will not need a new amp, you don't need amps period.
So you can sell the EVs and the amp.

This will make you more flexible. If you upgrade to six Yorkvilles you can do one system with one per side and one system with two per side, or one system with three per side.

Regards, Jack
 
Re: Need SUB help...

Jack Arnott said:
Hello Vinny,
As I tell my customers, I am glad to spend your money. So, here goes.

If you like the Yorkville better, sell the EV and get more Yorkville.
For one thing, you will not need a new amp, you don't need amps period.
So you can sell the EVs and the amp.

This will make you more flexible. If you upgrade to six Yorkvilles you can do one system with one per side and one system with two per side, or one system with three per side.

Regards, Jack
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It is an option I am seriously considering!
 
Re: Need SUB help...

...."I use two different systems because people hire me alot of times with there eyes (weekend warrior type gigs)....."

Vinny, your statement made me chuckle...Yes, some people do shop with their eyes.

I experimented a couple of years ago with smaller cabs and the client couldn't tell the difference.
What I did:
I provide the rig (two Yorkville tx4 cabs with one tx9s) for a yearly HS showchoir festival. The tx4's are onstage with the sub in the center infront of the stage in a 900 seat HS auditorium.
On dress rehearsal night I placed one Yorkville e10 ontop of each tx4 cab and using an e10p ran the e10's/tx9s as a 2 way system.
I ran the system mono with the L out of my MixWiz going to the tx4 combo and R going to the e10 combo. The showchoir ran each tune several times and I just toggled back/forth between rigs.
Now mind you, this was not a rock concert application but no one could tell the difference. Although the e10's were pushed abit, it sounded fine..

Mike M
 
Re: Need SUB help...

Perhaps late again - but IME QSC RMX amps can run about 6db into limiting before they stop getting louder on subs and start sounding compressed. An RMX2450 running dual mono into a pair of Peavey PV118's @ 500wrms each (not my rig) is pretty pathetic at the onset of limiting but they perk right up when pushed 6db past that. Your subs can take maybe 2x the power those 3" VC Peavey's can so 600wrms per cone is kinda weak to begin with - I'd not have the least worry about pushing hard into the limiters there. Obviously with proper HPF ...
 
Re: Need SUB help...

Vinny, how hard were you into the limiters and were your subs sounding stressed? As you might have gathered, I'm not a big fan of lots of speaker processor limiting.
 
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