One of those nights

John Halliburton

John Halliburton

Junior
Jan 10, 2011
428
2
18
The city with big shoulders
Finally had a hard one.

1. Loudest band I've ever had in the pub. Mostly the drummer causing the rest of the band to keep up. They brought relatively small amps for acoustic and bass.
2. The bare wall behind them was a problem. 24' wide by 14' high, flat plaster except for foam panels noted below.
3. Five wedges on four mixes.
4. Only 50 people.
5. Feedback in the house.
6. Four SM86's across the front. Switched the two lead vox to 58's at first break, which the band took a bit early to let me work on things.
7. No real soundcheck. We could not get the room until 5:30ish. They set up, broke for dinner while I fiddled around trying to ring things out.
8. OM7 on the drummer worked fine.
9. I brought out all four foam panels, and put them behind the band on the wall, two as close to the drummer and his wedge as possible. It helped a bit.

At the first break I pulled the FOH stacks out into the room more. The wedges were already set up about 3' out in front of the stage, and the four vox mic stands on the floor in front of them to provide enough room on stage. FOH stacks were out in front of the line of wedges by 18" or so.

Although loud, and I could understand the lyrics, I could not get them to really have impact out front-and the lead vox has the classic whisky soaked gravel style voice that you want to do that with.

I'll really want to get my mic kit set with more SM58's again, or get a selection of Beta58's or OM6/7's.

The band were still very easy to work for, and total pros. They understood the room issues immediately when they arrived for load in.

The second set was better, but I was riding faders most of the show-pull back a bit inbetween songs. EQ's were too hacked for my liking.

Great fiddle though, she mentioned the maker, but it looks like a regular violin, but it's built with a very stealthy pickup system that produces a great sound-no problem with her.

Comps weren't helping me last night, pulled them off the vocals during a break. Mixer inserts are pre everything, so some Y cables are needed.

Only mic'd kick and snare(was warned by other bandmembers before set up), and only used some kick in the house mix for low end. Had gates on them.

I'm really thinking that running a cleat across the back wall like the type you hang cabinets from would be a great method for hanging a set of diffusers and absorbers for shows like this. Hang it head high, mix and match.

Sorry for the rant. It was one of those nights that a shot of Jack wouldn't have helped afterwards. Two were okay.


John
 
Re: One of those nights

This does not fill me with confidence for Friday, one of the bands has 2 drummers, a fiddle, a cello a bass guitar, electric guitar and a keyboard along with 3 vocals another one has a singing drummer who appears to play like Animal from the muppets! while his mates play pop punk style music, all this in a gym hall/barn/acoustic nightmare!!! Joy to the world etc etc and a stiff drink isn't an option as I'm driving. G
 
Re: One of those nights

It must be something in the weather,or the phase of the moon.

Yesterday, I sat through a one day indoor festival that was the worst display of not having a clue I have seen in a long time. Usually I would just leave, but there were a couple of bands I wanted to see, and the torential downpours knd of helped to keep me in place.

This wasn't just a case of "I don't like your idea of a mix", every band that took the stage had technical problems. But none of the problems were insolvable. After the first band, I thought they were just ironing out kinks, after the second band well there were new kinks, after the fifth band we it was clear someone had no clue. Especially after watching one of the two headliners try to get patched and line checked for over 35 minutes. And then stopping in the middle of the set to try to line check again.

The front of house mix had frequent, odd, level jumps in many of the channels, Channels were muted or padded at odd times. Several bass amps introduced ground hums. Most of the lower part of the vocal range was mush, and the subs were worse.

I try not to comment on others peoples work because you never really know what problems behind the scenes they are dealing with but I also figure how much trouble can you get into in a 500 seat auditorium, with a fully curtained stage and 10 channels of mics and a bass DI for a bluegrass show? I do know that if I am going to spend $35 for a show with 2 national acts, and 2 bigger regionals, I would expect much higher production levels.
 
Re: One of those nights

Jay Barracato said:
I do know that if I am going to spend $35 for a show with 2 national acts, and 2 bigger regionals, I would expect much higher production levels.
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Jay.....

With all due respect........why (with your knowledge and experience) would you expect more?

I never expect competence in that area and am surprised when I do find it. YMMV

DR
 
Re: One of those nights

Dick Rees said:
Jay.....

With all due respect........why (with your knowledge and experience) would you expect more?

I never expect competence in that area and am surprised when I do find it. YMMV

DR
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Maybe I am fundamentally an optimist, and I don't think I have a monopoly on what I know how to do.

The funny thing is that going was really a last minute decision. I was originally going to be traveling to either Asheville, or Nashville, but neither panned out. On Tuesday I sent an email to the promoter asking who the provider was, figuring I know most of the people in the area who would be handling this type of show and thinking I might be able to help out. The email message I got back had a providers name I had never heard of, so I never followed up.

This weekend, I am heading to a 2 night stand in a hotel with the worst power I have ever encountered. The core of the hotel where the lounge is a pre civl war mansion that over the years has been a private home and a woman's college as well as a hotel. Who knows what is in some of the wiring behind the walls. They have been trying to fix a hum problem in their small system for over 6 months (since it was originally installed). They don't have enough channels so I will be setting up my smallest system. The last time I was there I was able to reduce the hum in my system to a barely noticable background hiss, but I was never able to completely eliminate it. It was weird because the system was dead silent until you plugged in any mics, that would start the hiss. No place I could lift a ground totally eliminated it, including at the one wall outlet were I was pulling all the juice. I also tried at least 6 different circuits. I am hoping an ebtech will help out this time.
 
Re: One of those nights

gordon mcgregor said:
This does not fill me with confidence for Friday, one of the bands has 2 drummers, a fiddle, a cello a bass guitar, electric guitar and a keyboard along with 3 vocals another one has a singing drummer who appears to play like Animal from the muppets! while his mates play pop punk style music, all this in a gym hall/barn/acoustic nightmare!!! Joy to the world etc etc and a stiff drink isn't an option as I'm driving. G
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In their defense, the band were very good technically, got set up promptly, good rigs, etc. The guitar players pulled out sound hole covers at the break to help. Drummer is just a one level player-loud. The live room doesn't help, nor the 8' deep by 16' wide stage that's only 10" high.

However, I got caught with my pants down a bit by overestimating the ability of the vocal mics in this application. I won't make that mistake again. Hopefully I'll get the chance to rig the diffusion and absorption panels behind the stage like I want. I've been trying to get the center to build in a proper stage for years, they're starting to listen, and it may happen now. Larger and taller would be nice, allowing the musicians to spread out more, increasing the distance between mics.

Best regards,

John
 
Re: One of those nights

John Halliburton said:
In their defense, the band were very good technically, got set up promptly, good rigs, etc. The guitar players pulled out sound hole covers at the break to help. Drummer is just a one level player-loud. The live room doesn't help, nor the 8' deep by 16' wide stage that's only 10" high.

However, I got caught with my pants down a bit by overestimating the ability of the vocal mics in this application. I won't make that mistake again. Hopefully I'll get the chance to rig the diffusion and absorption panels behind the stage like I want. I've been trying to get the center to build in a proper stage for years, they're starting to listen, and it may happen now. Larger and taller would be nice, allowing the musicians to spread out more, increasing the distance between mics.

Best regards,

John
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John,

How about a couple strips of picture rail at the back of the stage painted to match the walls. When not in use, it would not be very noticable and it would make hanging your panels or band banners etc. very easy. All you would need is a box of s hooks.
 
As Im reading this, I thought it might have been a band Ive worked with from San Francisco, but the "she" fiddle player ruled it out. Tough break, I guess we can't win them all, and boy does it suck when we lose.
 
Re: One of those nights

Graham C Mellor said:
As Im reading this, I thought it might have been a band Ive worked with from San Francisco, but the "she" fiddle player ruled it out. Tough break, I guess we can't win them all, and boy does it suck when we lose.
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Actually, the band are based out Philly way...and the female fiddler is a recent addition.

Jay, the "hangin' strip" is actually what I'm proposing-it will also have a 45 degree bevel running along the top length, so any panel I make with a cleat on the back side with the mating bevel will just hang against the wall naturally. With a little more work, a method of actually using a couple of screws as extra security for a panel should be fairly easy.

Best regards,

John

PS. Graham, check your messages.
 
Re: One of those nights

Tim Weaver said:
As much as I hate them you would have done much better with all OM7's on vox. Sometimes we just have to go guerilla on it and get through the gig.
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Tim, agreed, but why such a slam on the OM7? Aside from moisture sensitivity it's a pretty decent sounding mic given the types of applications it is designed for. On a loud stage I can almost always end up with a better mix and a much easier night with an OM7 than just about anything else (though I do like the AE5400 too).

I'm curious to know what you hate so much about them.....
 
Re: One of those nights

Jeff Babcock said:
it's a pretty decent sounding mic given the types of applications it is designed for.
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No, it's not.

On a loud stage I can almost always end up with a better mix and a much easier night with an OM7 than just about anything else
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.
This is very true. It's their only redeeming quality in my book.

I'm curious to know what you hate so much about them.....
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The sound mostly. They always make people sound like they have a stuffy nose. There is no openness to these mics at all. The OM6 is actually the closest thing, but I still don't like it.


Listen, I think Audix makes great microphones, and I use the D series often. I am just never happy with their vox mics and won't use them if I've got any other choice. It's a personal preference thing to me. I know most people love them, but deep down I wonder if it's from ease-of-use, or if it's from a pure sound quality standpoint. For me, they lose on the sound quality.
 
Re: One of those nights

Tim,

The OM7 is one of those mics that work on some voices, and not on others. When it works, and you have a vocalist who stays hard on the mic 100% of the time, you can get crazy monitor levels without breaking a sweat... and the FOH sound is cleaner. When it doesn't work it's a real pain in the ass. Just another tool in the tool box.
 
Re: One of those nights

Tim Weaver said:
No, it's not.

They always make people sound like they have a stuffy nose. There is no openness to these mics at all. The OM6 is actually the closest thing, but I still don't like it.

I know most people love them, but deep down I wonder if it's from ease-of-use, or if it's from a pure sound quality standpoint. For me, they lose on the sound quality.
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OK, fair enough.

I personally don't find they cause a stuffy nose effect and don't mind the sound quality, but everyone's tastes and working environments differ. At least it's better than a 58 most times. Certainly you can do better if sound quality is the only consideration, but often there are many other compromises to be made if sound quality is the leading criteria for a mic.

FWIW I like the Heil PR35 when I have a situation appropriate for it. Of course it sounds better.
 
Re: One of those nights

Bennett Prescott said:
Tim,

The OM7 is one of those mics that work on some voices, and not on others. When it works, and you have a vocalist who stays hard on the mic 100% of the time, you can get crazy monitor levels without breaking a sweat... and the FOH sound is cleaner. When it doesn't work it's a real pain in the ass. Just another tool in the tool box.
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Agreed, and like I said I do use them from time to time. Especially on singing drummers. I am just from the old school and have never had a problem getting stupid levels out of a plain old 58. When you apply the standard eq to them I think they sound great as well. I seem to be in the minority on that opinion on this board but for some reason I still see them being used on "A" national acts all over the world. Gotta be something to that...

I am a fan of the Heil mics too. Some of Bob's products will be the next thing added to my mic collection I think. They seem to offer the best of everything that I can tell. Of course I don't know personally what the long term reliability is, but they seem very well built.
 
Re: One of those nights

Jeff Babcock said:
OK, fair enough.

I personally don't find they cause a stuffy nose effect and don't mind the sound quality, but everyone's tastes and working environments differ. At least it's better than a 58 most times. Certainly you can do better if sound quality is the only consideration, but often there are many other compromises to be made if sound quality is the leading criteria for a mic.

FWIW I like the Heil PR35 when I have a situation appropriate for it. Of course it sounds better.
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The "stuffy nose sound" is a function of it's super-narrow pick-up pattern. Vocal sound does not only come from the mouth like from the horn of a speaker, things like head resonance and air flow thought the nose plays a part, also.

I'd say that the OM7 sounds OK on most people, great on a few and absolutely mud on a few others. For loud metal shows with no advance, rider, or time to try things out I somethimes just set up OM7s to be on the safe side. I'd rather take my chance at have muddy vocals than lots of feedback.

For singers that use "human compression" (read: move on and off the mic) or for singers that insist on singing into the side of the mic or for singers that are constantly turning their head slightly from side to side while on the mic, the OM7 is a horrible mic.

For me it's mainly a "metal mic" - although I have used them in other scenarios, but only with vocalists that I know have a style of singing that works with the OM7 - for them it can be a real problemsolver.

Also, I never put up my last OM7 on stage. Having had several fill up with spit and starting to "sound like cardboard" I refuse to use them without a spare close by.
 
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