Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

Matt Vivlamore said:
So the last several shows have been a briefcase gig for me and production has provided the microphones, I've gotten a mix of Small & Large condensers for over heads.

What are the advantages of each over the other?
What about disadvantages?
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Matt,

There could be a fun discussion of physics here, but let me be more practical. There are some positively dreadful SDC and LDC floating out in the world. Arguably the biggest problem with either is the wealth of dreadful clones/copies/knockoffs floating around. Either that or units with funky response due to getting dropped or junked up. I'll take a well maintained pair of either type (SDC / LDC), as long as they are from a mainstream, known good manufacturer.

I process overheads pretty heavily (HPF, compression, eq), so I'm not going to get too worried about turning some additional eq knobs to get the overall balance where I need it to be.

--

Personally, give me a mix of Shure SM57, Shure B57A, EV RE20, AKG 414, and any reputable pencil condenser and I'll be happy at virtually every gig I ever do. Throw in Royer, the M 88, the M 201, and a high end vocal mic (e.g. Sennheiser E965) if I'm spending someone else's money :lol:
 
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Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

I agree with the give me something that works and i also prefer a single overhead. When you step back the width of a stage, a drum kit is not a stereo source so i feel no need to cram it into one. I like atm450s on my percussion metal, under hats and rides and over the crashes.

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Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

I have been using Heil PR35's for OH's for shows and live recording lately and they are more realistic, especially when processed with EQ and compression.
 
Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

In the room I work in, I don't use overheads for anything but capturing the very top end of the metal. So I use SDCs and close mic the metal. I don't see any need for LDCs in that application. I'm just looking for the high ping of the ride, the top end sizzle of the hat, and the breath of the crashes. The room has more than enough of the rest of the cymbal wash coming off stage and into other open mics. All other drums are close mic'd and again, I have no desire to pipe the toms and snare through the overheads. Hard high pass and additional low shelf so I'm only grabbing above 6k from the metal.
 
Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

Greg Cameron said:
In the room I work in, I don't use overheads for anything but capturing the very top end of the metal.
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I find this to be clearer than going with just the cymbal bleed. It doesn't take a lot but is certainly makes those hits sharper.



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Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

I guess I should add... I've been using SDC's for my own shows and I am using the AKG C451B on Overhead and Shure SM81 on Hats. The drummer is behind a plexi shield.

I was just wondering if there is any HUGE sound difference or benefits over one or the other. But yes, I would use a quality mic in this situation.
 
Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

Jay Barracato said:
I find this to be clearer than going with just the cymbal bleed. It doesn't take a lot but is certainly makes those hits sharper.
Click to expand...

Agreed. For me at least, something is really missing without that extra top of the hats and that really high frequency ping of the ride. Maybe it's because I'm a drummer ;) But I find that the performance sounds more "rich" with that extra top end. That's also a reason I don't like mixing on older era 2" horns that don't have much extension or a lot of breakup at the top of their range. No matter how much EQ boost you give the horns to get the sparkle, it ain't there or it ain't right ;) The Rat Trap 5s I have in fact have those old 2" JBL 2441s in them that don't go all the way up. But they do have those 1" 18Sound drivers running from 8k on up to take care of the VHF and get the "sparkle".

A local up here who does sound for most of the outdoor events at our fairgrounds has a Meyer M2D array. I never liked the sound of them very much. After looking at the cut sheet, I think I know why: 70-14kHz +/-4dB. They never seem to have any top end. They don't have a published graph of the response, but I suspect above 8k they're rolling off pretty well.
 
Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

Greg Cameron said:
Agreed. For me at least, something is really missing without that extra top of the hats and that really high frequency ping of the ride. Maybe it's because I'm a drummer ;) But I find that the performance sounds more "rich" with that extra top end. That's also a reason I don't like mixing on older era 2" horns that don't have much extension or a lot of breakup at the top of their range. No matter how much EQ boost you give the horns to get the sparkle, it ain't there or it ain't right ;) The Rat Trap 5s I have in fact have those old 2" JBL 2441s in them that don't go all the way up. But they do have those 1" 18Sound drivers running from 8k on up to take care of the VHF and get the "sparkle".

A local up here who does sound for most of the outdoor events at our fairgrounds has a Meyer M2D array. I never liked the sound of them very much. After looking at the cut sheet, I think I know why: 70-14kHz +/-4dB. They never seem to have any top end. They don't have a published graph of the response, but I suspect above 8k they're rolling off pretty well.
Click to expand...

Like the L'Acoustics KUDO, I think Meyer wishes the M2D would just go away. Too many compromises, and perhaps rushed to market.

I hate onstage clutter, so a single OH is my choice. It is only for "sheen" if needed. Coherency is out the window.

Lots of artists' engineers are archiving these days, so I see lots of Shure VP88's on OH's. If the split to record is "raw off the floor", there is lots of future correction/sweetening possible.
 
Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

Matt Vivlamore said:
I was just wondering if there is any HUGE sound difference or benefits over one or the other. But yes, I would use a quality mic in this situation.
Click to expand...
A (good) LDC has a better signal to noise ratio than a SDC, so can pick up more detail than a SDC, of possible use for very quiet jazz drummers playing with brushes, but little advantage for most drummers. If your drummer is loud enough to be put behind a plexi shield, having overly sensitive (LDC) mics is probably more of a disadvantage given the acoustic environment.
 
Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

Art Welter said:
A (good) LDC has a better signal to noise ratio than a SDC, so can pick up more detail than a SDC, of possible use for very quiet jazz drummers playing with brushes, but little advantage for most drummers. If your drummer is loud enough to be put behind a plexi shield, having overly sensitive (LDC) mics is probably more of a disadvantage given the acoustic environment.
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I don't think the drummer not to loud... we use the Plexi more to keep (redirect) the sound out of the vocal mics. It helps out a lot with being on IEMs.
 
Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

We just did an outdoor event and I tried something different. Normally I use a single overhead along with the usual other drum mics but this time I dug out an ATM 4050 that I used to use for my home studio. I set it for omni and placed it down near the snare using the low end roll off an -10 switches. My drums have Audix D2 inside the toms and a D6 in the kick so the only outside mic was the ATM 4050 near the snare/hat and it did seem to capture the cymbals nicely as well. I'm going to continue with this concept on future gigs because it was pretty simple - sounded really nice and there were only 4 channels on all the drums. :)~:)~:smile: When I read some of these posts - so many people just use the letters or numbers of a product and sometimes I have to Google just to figure out what people are talking about so I'll save you the trouble and try to place a pic it he mic >>>

at4050_2_sq.jpg
 
Re: Overheads: small vs LARGE condenser

The Shure VP88 is a noisy mic otherwise (say for a studio recording of acoustic guitar), but great for a "set it and forget it" stereo overhead pair if you are recording the set as well as live mixing. You can adjust the stereo spread, and "medium" works pretty well for a kit when tracking. I replaced mine with a set of Neumann KM184's which are great little SDC's but very fragile in the rough and tumble of live sound. I agree that, in the live mix, you'd just roll it off to capture the ping, but you'd also have a pretty good set of overheads in your hard drive if you are recording, as long as there is not excessive stage bleed from a cramped or unbalanced situation.
 
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