Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Randy Gartner

Randy Gartner

Junior
Jan 12, 2011
465
18
18
72
Pennsylvania
randygartnersound.com
Here's a note to all electric guitar players. Since I have been playing gigs etc. around here more lately, I am now reminded of how this particular area is plagued by people that hire bands with electric guitar players, and then get some sort of satisfaction, maybe even pleasure telling them to turn down the volume of said electric guitar. Well...I'm still amazed, they want a rock band, they WANT an electric guitar, They know that electric guitar players play loudly .... yet they seem that it must not be loud for them. HEY ... AN ELECTRIC GUITAR IS LOUD .... WTF??? So , fair warning to club owners, venue promoters, booking agents, managers, and even those pesky sound "engineers" (I have no idea how / why sound men around here seem to think they are supposed to , or even allowed to, dictate how the performers perform ...and you know a real engineer has a college degree ...let's see that sheepskin .. you don't have one, then S-T-F-U) ..anyway ... from now on, when told to turn down... i'm going "full tilt boogie "until I'm told to turn down the 2nd time at which time I will back it back to where I had it in the first place. I have done this with good success in the past. It is fun and really satisfying. The trick is to, when you turn it up, really blast the shit out of things ... turn on the boost , distortion, give it to them good ...they they are really happy when you put it back to where it was. Nuf said. Hey ...who's gonna join me... guitarists ??? It's time we stand up to these people.

Oh ..by the way ... remember the same person that is telling you how to play is probably not the person paying you, or if it is the person paying you, they are not paying you enough that's for sure..... and you might not even get what's promised when you book the gig ... so the hell with them .. i'm letting it rip...haha...
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Oh wait,there's more:A sound man is not supposed to "mix" anything. PERIOD. He is there with his equipment to, as INVISIBLY as possible, reinforce any weak sound. E.G. if the guitar is already loud enough, or even too loud, his job is to bring everybody up to that level. If the guitar is unreasonably loud....well evidently the person/ company that hired that band wanted to hear him play that way would not have hired him so Mr. sound engineer respect the wishes of the person that booked the act and just make things sound as best as you can but please do not MIX as you were not hired to mix ... just "reinforce" and all will be fine. That being said, if the person that books inappropriate acts, like hiring a blues band for a polka show, then he gets fired. I still to this day cannot figure out why these clubs and other venues hire loud bands then try to make them turn down , especially when the place is packed and the money is running into their pockets ... nuf said. I gotta go hook up more speakers to my amp so I can play louder. bye
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Here is a response from a musician friend of mine: Put your amp on a chair or stand and aim it at your head Fred, probably be loud enough for you, and others can enjoy your tasty licks.
If your amp is standing straight forward on the floor most of the volume blows right past you.
Oh and never tick a sound guy off, they are the most important guy in your band. One twist of a single knob and he can make your band sound awful, or be nice to him and he will bust his butt to make u sound good.
The Voice of Reason.
Pat Garrett
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

And then my reply:Pat,you get it.I could never understand putting your guitar amp behind you pointing at the back of your knees while you want your monitor in front of you. As a musician,I realize you have to hear yourself and I try to offer tips from my 50 plus years of playing.Some will take advice and some won't.It's all about working together.The best concert I ever heard was the Eagles at the Soveriegn Center several years ago.Their long time sound guy JD Brill is one of the best in the business. I found his e-mail address and told him his mix was the best ever.We e-mailed each other for awhile and he gave me some tips. One of which was you need to control the stage volume.I have heard many concerts in that venue and have mixed in there myself.The ones that had a good stage volume sounded the great. The others were something less.Some of them were down right terrible. If you want it to sound the best possible,work with your sound guy.
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

A competent performer adapts to the room. A 120dB rig may be OK on a stage that's higher than any audience member is tall, in a room that's 300' deep. It is absolutely not appropriate when it's facing directly at an audience member who is only 20' away.
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Randy Gartner said:
Here's a note to all electric guitar players. Since I have been playing gigs etc. around here more lately, I am now reminded of how this particular area is plagued by people that hire bands with electric guitar players, and then get some sort of satisfaction, maybe even pleasure telling them to turn down the volume of said electric guitar. Well...I'm still amazed, they want a rock band, they WANT an electric guitar, They know that electric guitar players play loudly .... yet they seem that it must not be loud for them. HEY ... AN ELECTRIC GUITAR IS LOUD .... WTF??? So , fair warning to club owners, venue promoters, booking agents, managers, and even those pesky sound "engineers" (I have no idea how / why sound men around here seem to think they are supposed to , or even allowed to, dictate how the performers perform ...and you know a real engineer has a college degree ...let's see that sheepskin .. you don't have one, then S-T-F-U) ..anyway ... from now on, when told to turn down... i'm going "full tilt boogie "until I'm told to turn down the 2nd time at which time I will back it back to where I had it in the first place. I have done this with good success in the past. It is fun and really satisfying. The trick is to, when you turn it up, really blast the shit out of things ... turn on the boost , distortion, give it to them good ...they they are really happy when you put it back to where it was. Nuf said. Hey ...who's gonna join me... guitarists ??? It's time we stand up to these people.

Oh ..by the way ... remember the same person that is telling you how to play is probably not the person paying you, or if it is the person paying you, they are not paying you enough that's for sure..... and you might not even get what's promised when you book the gig ... so the hell with them .. i'm letting it rip...haha...
Click to expand...
Wow :D
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

How directional are most guitar amps? Someone please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that if the guitar amp is aimed straight at the mix position it always seems louder then if it isn’t. Sometimes it isn’t that the guitar player is just too loud it’s that they don’t have the capability to cover the whole audience properly. If they aim a loud guitar amp straight at me I have a tendency to turn it down in the mix.

Also one reason that I usually refuse to do a board tape is what is coming out of the sound system isn’t what one hears in the audience. That is a mix of the stage sound and the sound system.

You may be right about the person booking the band is booking the wrong band but I usually have to answer to the person who booked the whole gig. And they are the ones that come and complain to me when the band sucks. And they would never hire me again if all I did was make the whole band louder to make up for a guitar player that is too loud.

I have found that when I am working with a good band that it can be a relaxing evening for me. When I am working with a not so great band I have to work a lot harder and I can usually make them sound ok. But I am totally worn out by the end of the show.

All conflict come from a difference in expectations.

Most of these shows I am referring to are outdoors.

Story one.

A while ago while doing a show outdoors on a show mobile, which have their own acoustic problems. The instrumentalists show up and plug in and they are very loud. We told them to not try to cover the audience with their amps, let us cover the audience with the sound system that’s what we are there for. Just play loud enough to hear yourselves. So they turned down their amps and had them at a reasonable level.

After the show the band was all thrilled, they were saying they could actually hear everything clearly and it wasn’t too loud. They said they never could hear each other so well as they could that night. And their groupies came up to us and said they never sounded so good.

Story two.

The story of an event -
We were hired by the event and I have only had a situation like this once in my career. Many years ago, last act of the day, fireworks are next, the crowd is now families with young kids to see the fireworks. I have more then enough rig for the gig, the musicians I would guess are in their late 20s, someone (I think he was the father of one of the group members) comes up to me before they start and tells me the guitar player plays loud. No sound check, line check only. Monitor engineer gets his act together very quickly, and I am right with him. First song starts, and the guitar player was WAY TOO LOUD. I had the capability to bring everything else up to match his levels but I wasn’t going to deafen all of those people. I couldn’t get anyone’s attention so I killed the masters on the house mixer; one of their helpers (roadies) comes running up to me to tell me that the house was off. I told him to tell the guitar player to turn it down and I will turn it back on. Some words were exchanged and I distinctly remember telling this guy “I have been doing sound longer then you have been alive”. He runs up to the stage and gets the guitar player to turn down and we have the monitor eng. give him a little bit more guitar in the monitors. After the show the helper comes up to me and says it sounded great. They did sound good when they weren’t trying to melt people.

It can sound good when we work together. I am hire to mix and mostly my mix is reinforcement.

BTW I used to be a guitar player. I say used to because I haven’t played for a while. But that’s a different story.
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Kevin Maxwell said:
How directional are most guitar amps? Someone please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that if the guitar amp is aimed straight at the mix position it always seems louder then if it isn’t. Sometimes it isn’t that the guitar player is just too loud it’s that they don’t have the capability to cover the whole audience properly. If they aim a loud guitar amp straight at me I have a tendency to turn it down in the mix.
Click to expand...

Due to the range of frequency most electric guitars live in and the size of the 12" cones in most guitar cabinets, guitar amps tend to be very "beamy." Often just telling the guitar player to point his cabinet just 10º away to either side mix position is enough to prevent the mix person from getting killed by guitar. I remember one show where I didn't do that and the only way I could mix was to duck below the mix desk to block the guitar and hear just the flow arrays. That was a bummer.

As for telling folks to turn down, I only do if they offer. Otherwise it is what it is. I work around it the best that I can.
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Tim Weaver said:
WTH did I just read???
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HE SAID THE GUITAR PLAYER WASNT THAT LOUD.... AND WE'RE CRAZY FOR ASKING HIM TO TURN IT DOWN.... Lol

Ask them once, no compliance, gtr gets removed from the pa.... Blend rest to stage volume of gtr. I'm about fed up asking them to turn down. That and asking the G D singers to sing in the mics...
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Shane Presley said:
HE SAID THE GUITAR PLAYER WASNT THAT LOUD.... AND WE'RE CRAZY FOR ASKING HIM TO TURN IT DOWN.... Lol

Ask them once, no compliance, gtr gets removed from the pa.... Blend rest to stage volume of gtr. I'm about fed up asking them to turn down. That and asking the G D singers to sing in the mics...
Click to expand...



I never ask the guitar player to turn down. I tell the singer that no one can hear him because the guitar is too loud. The problem then magically fixes itself.....
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Randy Gartner said:
Here's a note to all electric guitar players. Since I have been playing gigs etc. around here more lately, I am now reminded of how this particular area is plagued by people that hire bands with electric guitar players, and then get some sort of satisfaction, maybe even pleasure telling them to turn down the volume of said electric guitar. Well...I'm still amazed, they want a rock band, they WANT an electric guitar, They know that electric guitar players play loudly .... yet they seem that it must not be loud for them. HEY ... AN ELECTRIC GUITAR IS LOUD .... WTF??? So , fair warning to club owners, venue promoters, booking agents, managers, and even those pesky sound "engineers" (I have no idea how / why sound men around here seem to think they are supposed to , or even allowed to, dictate how the performers perform ...and you know a real engineer has a college degree ...let's see that sheepskin .. you don't have one, then S-T-F-U) ..anyway ... from now on, when told to turn down... i'm going "full tilt boogie "until I'm told to turn down the 2nd time at which time I will back it back to where I had it in the first place. I have done this with good success in the past. It is fun and really satisfying. The trick is to, when you turn it up, really blast the shit out of things ... turn on the boost , distortion, give it to them good ...they they are really happy when you put it back to where it was. Nuf said. Hey ...who's gonna join me... guitarists ??? It's time we stand up to these people.

Oh ..by the way ... remember the same person that is telling you how to play is probably not the person paying you, or if it is the person paying you, they are not paying you enough that's for sure..... and you might not even get what's promised when you book the gig ... so the hell with them .. i'm letting it rip...haha...
Click to expand...

So Randy...do you get asked back for repeat gigs? If so, then your "loud" must be workable. If you are not getting return work you might think about adjusting a bit. Most sound guys are all about helping the "whole band" sound good (balanced) to the majority of the audience.
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

My favorite is the guitar player who just has to play that loud to get his "tone", but then, when asked to point it at his head, says he doesn't like the way it sounds...
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Randy Gartner said:
he gave me some tips. One of which was you need to control the stage volume.
Click to expand...

This, right here should be screen printed on every piece of musical instrument sold to bands. Keep the stage volume under control and the opportunity to sound better is amazing.

I do quite a few festivals in tents which are a nightmare for stage volume due to the shape of the tents. Drums are more of a problem for me than guitars, but it's the same problem. When the ideal volume requested by the promoter is 90db FOH, but stage volume is creating 95-100db FOH, it makes the sound guy's problem a little trickier. Explaining to the promoter that the negative values screened on the mixer don't mean that makes it quieter than it started sometimes is a challenge.
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

Lee Douglas said:
My favorite is the guitar player who just has to play that loud to get his "tone", but then, when asked to point it at his head, says he doesn't like the way it sounds...
Click to expand...

That's because he sets his "tone" with the amp pointed at his knees and he always listens to it from directly above never thinking to actually listen to what's coming directly out of the speaker.

No big surprise here but I've heard DJ's do the same basic thing by having the high end blistering on their system so it sounds I dare say good to them as they stand behind the speakers.
 
Re: Rants from guitar player about sound guys

I had a bit of trouble following the initial rant too, but I gather it boils down to guitar players not wanting the sound guy to tell them how to play their guitar/adjust their amp.

I had an interesting lesson in this over 30 years ago. A band that I had been providing for (and I still work for to this day) had a week long gig at a big club in town. I owned a PA, but the agent considered me short on experience, so he hired his regular guy to do the FOH mix. I was bumped to lights (oh the shame :roll: ).

The regular guy's nickname was "Scrapper". Many people he worked with probably never knew his real name, but I'm told he earned it honestly, and he was known as someone not to mess with. When it was time to check the guitar, he listened for about 5 seconds to the Strat played through a Fender Twin with JBL E120s, and said, "Turn the top end down!". The guitar player, aware of his reputation, complied immediately. That moment was an eye opener for me. Up to that point, I had pretty much tried to work with whatever they gave me, and had been scolded once by the drummer, "We're paying you. You have to do what we want, not the other way around".

I was initially pissed off about being bumped from the FOH job, but resolved to pay attention and try to learn something. As I recall, we were using the house PA, and there was a gain staging problem between my Soundcraft 200 and it, requiring Scrapper to really nail the output VU meters to get enough volume in the PA. It was clean enough, but the needle of the meter banging against the stop was rather disconcerting. Scrapper had a solution for that: he just PFL'd an un-used channel, and the VU meter went back to rest. I think he might have showed me the trick of taping a beer bottle cap over the 1 kHz slate button too (that was far too easy to hit by mistake, with very loud consequences!).

GTD
 
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