Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

At the risk of being ridiculed by people who have never heard this product here are a couple of line array things that can actually compete with some of the big dawgs.
Ramsdell Pro Audio - Products

Ramsdell Pro Audio - Products - Line Array Section - LA-2-12.2

Not sure of the price per box but as has already been mentioned you will need a full size truck for transport - lots of NL8 cable - motor hoists - and plenty of modern power amps with all the rack pac and distro wire needed so the price per box is just the tip of the iceberg. Then once you have all that stuff you have to deal with the logistics of getting it all up in the air and aimed properly.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon, for the types of stuff you are mentioning, I think you'd be hard pressed to beat a used KF730 rig. Similar to Scott, I have been on shows where we used 10 per side to cover around 7500 people at "rock show" sort of levels, with no headroom concerns. 6 per side has done 4000 sized shows many times and been fine. They get very loud for their size. With the 8800 processor they sound very good, and they are easily manageable.

Used 730's are not horribly expensive considering what they do. While putting together a 6 (or more) per side used 730 rig won't be "cheap", I really can't think of anything that would work better in your circumstances and at such a low price point.
 
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Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Jeff Babcock said:
Brandon, for the types of stuff you are mentioning, I think you'd be hard pressed to beat a used KF730 rig. Similar to Scott, I have been on shows where we used 10 per side to cover around 7500 people at "rock show" sort of levels, with no headroom concerns. 6 per side has done 4000 sized shows many times and been fine. They get very loud for their size. With the 8800 processor they sound very good, and they are easily manageable.

Used 730's are not horribly expensive considering what they do. While putting together a 6 (or more) per side used 730 rig won't be "cheap", I really can't think of anything that would work better in your circumstances and at such a low price point.
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On the same scale is the VerTec 4888, but finding them used won't be easy as owners seem to be hanging onto them.

I'd be a bit reluctant to say "6 a side" (or any arbitrary quantity) will deliver a particular level of performance unless we know what the venue/audience geometry is. It's all about getting the rig at the right trim height and the correct inter-box angles to cover the depth/height of the audience area. Some venues require more boxes for the coverage, not necessarily output. That's why I suggest that anyone contemplating a line array purchase take a good look at where they plan to use the rig and put the dimensions into the manufacturer's calculation/prediction software. Never presume that "x" number of boxes will deliver an arbitrary level of results.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

For sure Tim, I'm just throwing out quick ideas of what has been done to give Brandon some frame of reference. It's by no means anything to base a decision on, just to say that 730's can do reasonably large events successfully. Agreed, if he is seriously considering a product then he should do some predictions.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Hi Brandon, I would highly recommend purchasing a rig that you can make money with now, and one that allows you to grow. Buying the best of the best and looking at it in your garage is a sure way to make the next owners of that gear and your house very happy. Buying a rig that is barely adequate today will be guaranteed to be obsolete tomorrow. That being said:

The Peavey 112 is a great value, but it can not take much abuse and it is definitely a small output cabinet. The JBL 4886 has much better output but it cost twice as much. If riders are a concern, the Nexo S12 and the Vertec 4886 and the used EAW 730 are probably your best bet when considering powering options and overall cost of ownership. However, the Nexo and Vertec are both compact or small, and the EAW is small/mid line array. The EAW has a tad more output than the compact JBL or Nexo, but the EAW is FAR from having the output of a large format array. All of these boxes are quality boxes providing you use the proprietary processor for each of them.

The Peavey 212 has more output than all of these cabinets, but it only can be considered inexpensive if you are comparing it to a 2 x 12 cabinet from any other manufacturer excepts maybe TSC. It costs more than compact/small format boxes listed, but the rigging is not on par with any of those boxes. Long story short, it is very possible to have the Peavey or most modern speakers to sound good. The biggest challenge is how much time is necessary to make the rig perform as intended day after day, venue after venue. The repeatability factor has a value, however, that value is for you to decide. If rider concerns are not an issue and you want the most output without question, (perceived sound quality not being apart of the equation) the Peavey or TSC are a true mid/large format arrays. (2 x 12" or larger) None of the other cabinets that I listed are. However, keep in mind, large format and inexpensive is a relative term. Ev, JBL, Turbosound, & EAW are "inexpensive" in comparison to many D&B, Martin, & L'acoustic offerings. At the same time TVI, Peavey, TSC, Soundbridge are relatively inexpensive in comparison to EV, JBL, Turbosound, etc. Good luck!
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Michael Powell said:
Hi Brandon, I would highly recommend purchasing a rig that you can make money with now, and one that allows you to grow. Buying the best of the best and looking at it in your garage is a sure way to make the next owners of that gear and your house very happy. Buying a rig that is barely adequate today will be guaranteed to be obsolete tomorrow. That being said:

The Peavey 112 is a great value, but it can not take much abuse and it is definitely a small output cabinet. The JBL 4886 has much better output but it cost twice as much. If riders are a concern, the Nexo S12 and the Vertec 4886 and the used EAW 730 are probably your best bet when considering powering options and overall cost of ownership. However, the Nexo and Vertec are both compact or small, and the EAW is small/mid line array. The EAW has a tad more output than the compact JBL or Nexo, but the EAW is FAR from having the output of a large format array. All of these boxes are quality boxes providing you use the proprietary processor for each of them.

The Peavey 212 has more output than all of these cabinets, but it only can be considered inexpensive if you are comparing it to a 2 x 12 cabinet from any other manufacturer excepts maybe TSC. It costs more than compact/small format boxes listed, but the rigging is not on par with any of those boxes. Long story short, it is very possible to have the Peavey or most modern speakers to sound good. The biggest challenge is how much time is necessary to make the rig perform as intended day after day, venue after venue. The repeatability factor has a value, however, that value is for you to decide. If rider concerns are not an issue and you want the most output without question, (perceived sound quality not being apart of the equation) the Peavey or TSC are a true mid/large format arrays. (2 x 12" or larger) None of the other cabinets that I listed are. However, keep in mind, large format and inexpensive is a relative term. Ev, JBL, Turbosound, & EAW are "inexpensive" in comparison to many D&B, Martin, & L'acoustic offerings. At the same time TVI, Peavey, TSC, Soundbridge are relatively inexpensive in comparison to EV, JBL, Turbosound, etc. Good luck!
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Thank you Michael for a well written explanation and giving some credence to the Peavey/TVI/TCS range. Riders are not the biggest concern with what we do, typically all the client is worried about is providing a system that the artist will not refuse to use for the least amount of money. I'm sure all of you know how competitive bidding can be on county fairs and festivals, usually the bids are looked at by people who don't know the difference between Nady and EAW. I'm not trying to make Peavey, TVI, or any of the other offerings seem better than they really are. What I am trying to do is find out what they are capable of when deployed correctly. Maybe all of this should have been posted in the Junior Varsity but I figured the guys on this forum would be more likely to have experience with them. Most of the lounge guys are smaller than what I do. I'm not a bar sound guy, but I'm also not a national tour kinda guy. We have a CBI 48 channel splitter snake, two consoles, and sumner eventers....that's our market, plain and simple.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
Thank you Michael for a well written explanation and giving some credence to the Peavey/TVI/TCS range. Riders are not the biggest concern with what we do, typically all the client is worried about is providing a system that the artist will not refuse to use for the least amount of money. I'm sure all of you know how competitive bidding can be on county fairs and festivals, usually the bids are looked at by people who don't know the difference between Nady and EAW. I'm not trying to make Peavey, TVI, or any of the other offerings seem better than they really are. What I am trying to do is find out what they are capable of when deployed correctly. Maybe all of this should have been posted in the Junior Varsity but I figured the guys on this forum would be more likely to have experience with them. Most of the lounge guys are smaller than what I do. I'm not a bar sound guy, but I'm also not a national tour kinda guy. We have a CBI 48 channel splitter snake, two consoles, and sumner eventers....that's our market, plain and simple.
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Hey Brandon, I'm not aware of how your market operates, but a see a couple holes in your theory about having an "off brand" speaker... Here's how the hiring goes around here... Promoter x is hired to provide for fair / festival y. Promoter x knows that he is having national z and either knows he can't hire sound co a cause they only have line array b, not a.... Are you with me so far.. I know this doesn't make sense, but what I'm getting at is I get gigs at a b level cause I have a b level rig,(eaw kf730) the a sound co in town gets the a level stuff (Meyer milo, big xlc rig, cobra)... Say the fair books you year one and the national comes in blind(you don't advance the gear with them) and they show up and don't like the badge, you're not going to have a good day.... Its going to be beaten hard or blown up or youll be getting attitude all day. Or if you do advance the gear, it's going to be a hard sell on the phone to the road manager or BE. I did it for years with a yorkville tx-4 rig and it wasn't fun. If you are starting off now, please do yourself a favor and buy an accepted brand, even if you start with less boxes , instead of getting 8 a side of off brand cabinets that will be worth even less)when you have that garage sale. My two cents.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
Thank you Michael for a well written explanation and giving some credence to the Peavey/TVI/TCS range. Riders are not the biggest concern with what we do, typically all the client is worried about is providing a system that the artist will not refuse to use for the least amount of money. I'm sure all of you know how competitive bidding can be on county fairs and festivals, usually the bids are looked at by people who don't know the difference between Nady and EAW. I'm not trying to make Peavey, TVI, or any of the other offerings seem better than they really are. What I am trying to do is find out what they are capable of when deployed correctly. Maybe all of this should have been posted in the Junior Varsity but I figured the guys on this forum would be more likely to have experience with them. Most of the lounge guys are smaller than what I do. I'm not a bar sound guy, but I'm also not a national tour kinda guy. We have a CBI 48 channel splitter snake, two consoles, and sumner eventers....that's our market, plain and simple.
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Part of the post I didn't submit earlier basically said "if you work in Middle Nowherestan, you can get away with stuff like TVI if the alternative is gear that plainly would be rejected by the act. A kind of 'in the land of the blind, a one-eyed man is king" thing. If your service is top notch you'll get a better reputation than if your service is lousy and the gear mediocre. The latter *does* get around in the entertainer's circle of agents and crew.

Most of "bands you've heard of" would probably reject TVI, but then I don't know what acts routinely play the events you provide for. For some of them it might be a real treat after walls of SP-2 and no subs, for others it might be slumming.

Have fun, good luck.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim McCulloch said:
Part of the post I didn't submit earlier basically said "if you work in Middle Nowherestan, you can get away with stuff like TVI if the alternative is gear that plainly would be rejected by the act. A kind of 'in the land of the blind, a one-eyed man is king" thing. If your service is top notch you'll get a better reputation than if your service is lousy and the gear mediocre. The latter *does* get around in the entertainer's circle of agents and crew.

Most of "bands you've heard of" would probably reject TVI, but then I don't know what acts routinely play the events you provide for. For some of them it might be a real treat after walls of SP-2 and no subs, for others it might be slumming.

Have fun, good luck.
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In the past couple of years we've done The Bellamy Brothers, Randy Houser, Ricochet, Jerrod Niemann, Shenandoah, Confederate Railroad, Charlie Mars, Steve Azar, Andy Griggs, etc....
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
In the past couple of years we've done The Bellamy Brothers, Randy Houser, Ricochet, Jerrod Niemann, Shenandoah, Confederate Railroad, Charlie Mars, Steve Azar, Andy Griggs, etc....
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Back when I had my production company-I did quite a few national acts of all different genres. I never had any cabinets (short of 1 pair of MSL half clams) that were "name" cabinets. I built all of them.

Just because you have worked with name acts (I did a couple of the names you listed) does not mean that the artists were totally happy. To be honest-most were-but not all-and mostly due to circumstances beyond my control or "not my problem man" but it "looked" like it was my issue.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
Large format=Large dollars.......ah......so if someone were to produce a less expensive product that matched SPL, coverage, and reliability of a more expensive, established brand then it is inherently junk? I'm not saying that any of the boxes I mentioned do match the "big" brands on specs, but this is a for instance.....
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Yes, it is junk. Even if it is built better with newer space aged materials and exceeds the established brand in every possible category. A line array is nothing but a $$$ generator, and you are in a business. I don't care what it sounds like, I only care what I can charge for it. If I go bankrupt with your wizbang new line array because everyone has it and all providers now charge 200 dollars for the whole show, the line array is a pile of garbage.

Many people buy JBL specifically because the average sound company owner can't afford it. To a large format concert client, if TVIlinearraysoundcompany can't afford JBL, then TVIlinearraysoundcompany should not get the show.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Ivan Beaver said:
Back when I had my production company-I did quite a few national acts of all different genres. I never had any cabinets (short of 1 pair of MSL half clams) that were "name" cabinets. I built all of them.

Just because you have worked with name acts (I did a couple of the names you listed) does not mean that the artists were totally happy. To be honest-most were-but not all-and mostly due to circumstances beyond my control or "not my problem man" but it "looked" like it was my issue.
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Same here, but it gets really tiring fast when every booking has to be argued -"trust me it will work" constantly to promotors, TM's SE's and BE's. -and then an engineer may show up pissed-off he didn't get his way and beats on your rig.


-Just buy some used Vdosc, Now that the K is out, there's more available :)
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
...I'm not a bar sound guy, but I'm also not a national tour kinda guy. We have a CBI 48 channel splitter snake, two consoles, and sumner eventers....that's our market, plain and simple.
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Brandon,

Seeing your available method of lifting makes me think you should focus on weight as your primary concern. Vertical array performance is ultimately tied to length, and your WLL with flybar is going to be pretty constrained. I too like the EAW KF730 with the UX processing, but I think its going to be too heavy for your lifts.

I've personally had good experience with Nexo GEO S8 (32lb), JBL 4886(34lb), and the Electrovoice XLD291 dual 8" with the EV FIR presets (48lb). All three of these boxes also have proper prediction software and processing available.

My local market has also seen an influx of dB Technologies T4. These are also very light (30ish lbs). Sound-wise I personally don't think them that special, but they are built well, are light, and look like they hit a good price point for ROI. I'd certainly consider them if I was in the rental business. People here have said good thing about their big brother, the T12, and I'm looking forward to experiencing those.

I wish I could give you a comparison of total cost of ownership, but I don't have those numbers. Depending on your existing amplifier inventory, I'd guess that the EV and Nexo solutions would be the most affordable, assuming you need only boxes and processors. Starting from scratch, I'll bet the T4 wins the total cost of ownership game.

You owe it to yourself to try the 4886, at least as a showroom demo. That little box is quite the technology statement from JBL, though I doubt it wins any value proposition wars with the above.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Phil Graham said:
Brandon,

Seeing your available method of lifting makes me think you should focus on weight as your primary concern. Vertical array performance is ultimately tied to length, and your WLL with flybar is going to be pretty constrained. I too like the EAW KF730 with the UX processing, but I think its going to be too heavy for your lifts.

I've personally had good experience with Nexo GEO S8 (32lb), JBL 4886(34lb), and the Electrovoice XLD291 dual 8" with the EV FIR presets (48lb). All three of these boxes also have proper prediction software and processing available.

My local market has also seen an influx of dB Technologies T4. These are also very light (30ish lbs). Sound-wise I personally don't think them that special, but they are built well, are light, and look like they hit a good price point for ROI. I'd certainly consider them if I was in the rental business. People here have said good thing about their big brother, the T12, and I'm looking forward to experiencing those.

I wish I could give you a comparison of total cost of ownership, but I don't have those numbers. Depending on your existing amplifier inventory, I'd guess that the EV and Nexo solutions would be the most affordable, assuming you need only boxes and processors. Starting from scratch, I'll bet the T4 wins the total cost of ownership game.

You owe it to yourself to try the 4886, at least as a showroom demo. That little box is quite the technology statement from JBL, though I doubt it wins any value proposition wars with the above.
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Thanks for the input, the weight is very much a concern. With the TVI or Peavey offerings I could go up to 6 boxes a side as they are only around 100lbs a box and the Sumners are rated to 800lbs.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Eventer 20 are rated at 800lbs from what I remember but that is at 18" out from the mast, normally I see line array guys going much further. If the T12 box could be flown sideways that would probably be a good option and price isn't to bad, otherwise Nexo GeoS12 or KF730 would be other good options. Any bigger and it shouldn't be flown from Genie lifts.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon you are at the level I play at as well and though I dn't own a largeish rig I think that a good 2nd hand rig of a known brand is a much better investment than a brand new unknown brand, case in point i still have Meyer UPA's which some quite snotty BE types have been fine with even though I have access to a much louder and IMO reasonable sounding system which is a relative unknown. The EAW 730's and JBLs I know little about though I'm sure they work well, but the little Nexos are great don't need lots of huge amps, do need a controller, though that takes a lot of the guessing out of the game, can be used a speaker on a stick if it comes to it weigh next to nothing and work very well IMO, sure they can look ridiculous in a big venue but there are loads around both in Europe and in the US and the system prices I'm seing are quite good for what you get. There is a local guy here who does all the local city jobs etc and while his service is usually good the versatility of the Nexo S8 rigs he has probably counts as much as anything else. G
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

gordon mcgregor said:
Brandon you are at the level I play at as well and though I dn't own a largeish rig I think that a good 2nd hand rig of a known brand is a much better investment than a brand new unknown brand, case in point i still have Meyer UPA's which some quite snotty BE types have been fine with even though I have access to a much louder and IMO reasonable sounding system which is a relative unknown. The EAW 730's and JBLs I know little about though I'm sure they work well, but the little Nexos are great don't need lots of huge amps, do need a controller, though that takes a lot of the guessing out of the game, can be used a speaker on a stick if it comes to it weigh next to nothing and work very well IMO, sure they can look ridiculous in a big venue but there are loads around both in Europe and in the US and the system prices I'm seing are quite good for what you get. There is a local guy here who does all the local city jobs etc and while his service is usually good the versatility of the Nexo S8 rigs he has probably counts as much as anything else. G
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I have one venue that I do regularly that is 200 feet + deep and holds about 4K and I just don't think some of the little boxes that have been mentioned can do it with clarity and at rock levels, Rider or No Rider in many many cases the sound has to be there...
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
I have one venue that I do regularly that is 200 feet + deep and holds about 4K and I just don't think some of the little boxes that have been mentioned can do it with clarity and at rock levels, Rider or No Rider in many many cases the sound has to be there...
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You can think what you want, go talk to some guys that are experienced with the boxes in questions and find out what they're true capabilities are, you might be surprised.
 
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