Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Chris Johnson said:
At the end of the day though, as much as it pains me as an Engineer, and as somewhat of a technical purist, people don't buy speakers because they sound good. They buy them because the pack in the truck nice, they rig quick, they cater to clients needs, they have low running costs, they cross rent easily, etc..
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It's possible to buy a good sounding, truck pack friendly, easily cross-rented rig that is not made in XXXXX.

The total cost of ownership needs to be considered, and part of that is paying off the old rig while buying another one. If one goes to that much trouble and expense it's a better investment to move UP rather than sideways (@Kristian).

Part of success in getting a BE to accept a non-standard rig is geography. If I'm a BE playing Mudhole, Mississippi for 1,500 pax, I'm more likely to take the unknown rig so the band can play the show and sell their merch. If the sound sucks the provider goes on my "abso-fucking-lutely never again" list. If we're playing in Jackson or anywhere near it, I'll tell the promoter/festival to call Geri and get me a "real" system.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim McCulloch said:
It's possible to buy a good sounding, truck pack friendly, easily cross-rented rig that is not made in XXXXX.

The total cost of ownership needs to be considered, and part of that is paying off the old rig while buying another one. If one goes to that much trouble and expense it's a better investment to move UP rather than sideways (@Kristian).

Part of success in getting a BE to accept a non-standard rig is geography. If I'm a BE playing Mudhole, Mississippi for 1,500 pax, I'm more likely to take the unknown rig so the band can play the show and sell their merch. If the sound sucks the provider goes on my "abso-fucking-lutely never again" list. If we're playing in Jackson or anywhere near it, I'll tell the promoter/festival to call Geri and get me a "real" system.
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You make a good point that I can't argue with.....Geri's company is not really my competition they deal in bigger shows and more of them. Most of the acts I deal with are 20K at most, really closer to 5-10K rising or falling country acts. The average rider I get wants 32-40 channels FOH and Monitor consoles, 5-8 monitor mixes, a mic package, and a FOH PA that does 120 dB at 100ft.

It all comes down to economics, if I did double, triple, or quadruple the number of shows (even the same size or smaller shows) I could afford much bigger/better gear, but as it stands now we have a cut throat stand off in my market between 3 companies. All of us have other "day-jobs" but love doing sound on the weekends and all 3 are reputable companies....just how it is.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
It all comes down to economics, if I did double, triple, or quadruple the number of shows (even the same size or smaller shows) I could afford much bigger/better gear, but as it stands now we have a cut throat stand off in my market between 3 companies. All of us have other "day-jobs" but love doing sound on the weekends and all 3 are reputable companies....just how it is.
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Therein lies the crux of your biscuit. You guys are fighting over table scraps, because your production work isn't required to put the food on your tables. That's another issue....

If I'm getting you, this lateral move is to distinguish you from your competitors; give you a strategic advantage (newer, shinier toys or louder/longer throw toys); better artist acceptance and maybe win the war for the allies... Those are valid reasons IF you can recapture your upfront costs by taking market share. It appears that 3 good-sized part timers (is that an oxymoron?) have their market carved up, that market isn't growing new gigs or festivals, and if there is an absolute ceiling on fees... the only way to grow is steal another guys client(s). In a price sensitive market, the only way you'll do that is with lower prices. You could buy a vDosc rig but still have to undercut the guy that provides a Q Wave rig.

So show me the money (figuratively). Where will it come from? How much and when? If you low-ball your way into a competitor's gig, how will you make a profit on it? When and how might you be able to get the fee back up?

The "Bright, shiny object" factor *does* have value, but it's short lived. It lasts until you either screw up a gig or a competitor buys a new rig.

What is the competition doing (or not doing) that makes you want to spend money in a fee-inelastic market?
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Hi Brandon,
There is a lot of good advice in the previous posts. Here are some of my thoughts:

1) If you buy used I would if get a demo of the actual rig before you buy it.
2) Are you selling your rig to someone in your area who is going to compete with you?
3) It it a situation where you can get multiple shows on the same day during your season? I grew to the point last season that I often had multiple shows on the same date, not really any larger shows just more of them. What is your marketing strategy?

-Eric
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I have a question about array rigs that I think is appropriate here. I'd like to hear what you guys are looking for in the hardware. Not the cabs, the flying hardware. Obviously engineer spec'd is necessary, but utilitarian stuff. What you like and don't like about how it adjusts, installs, works. What would make life easy?

BTW, I have enjoyed this thread.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

So this is what i would do. Sit down with the 2 competitors there and join your effort. Sell all the equipment. One buys truss and stage, other one buys light and what goes with it, you buy the sound rig. This way you do ALL of the gigs and dont fight for scraps and underbid each other :-).
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Marjan Milosevic said:
So this is what i would do. Sit down with the 2 competitors there and join your effort. Sell all the equipment. One buys truss and stage, other one buys light and what goes with it, you buy the sound rig. This way you do ALL of the gigs and don't fight for scraps and underbid each other :-).
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So all the techs across all companies are competent? They all take meticulous care of gear? They all share equally the SOS gigs? Or do all these details sort themselves out?
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Caleb Dick said:
So all the techs across all companies are competent? They all take meticulous care of gear? They all share equally the SOS gigs? Or do all these details sort themselves out?
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I think what Marjan is getting at is to get together and form one "real" company instead of having three part-time people with day jobs all looking for crumbs on the floor. It's a different world out there providing for his market as opposed to primarily designing installs and selling gear......
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Dick Rees said:
I think what Marjan is getting at is to get together and form one "real" company instead of having three part-time people with day jobs all looking for crumbs on the floor. It's a different world out there providing for his market as opposed to primarily designing installs and selling gear......
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Agreed. My comment was more for others playing along - combining companies with unequal assets isn't automatically a smooth endeavor.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Marjan Milosevic said:
So this is what i would do. Sit down with the 2 competitors there and join your effort. Sell all the equipment. One buys truss and stage, other one buys light and what goes with it, you buy the sound rig. This way you do ALL of the gigs and dont fight for scraps and underbid each other :-).
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The parties involved are in no way interested in that proposal, LOL! Some of us are not even on speaking terms.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Dick Rees said:
And the people getting you to bid against each other certainly prefer it that way..........
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That was part of my post a couple entries up-thread that I edited out while previewing. I suspected the clients were playing the vendors against each other. It happens in every market and with every genre. When a prospect takes your quote or bid and "shops" it with the other guys, you'll NEVER get a gig from them unless you're ridiculously underpriced to begin with.. and that won't stop some of the more shameless customers.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim McCulloch said:
That was part of my post a couple entries up-thread that I edited out while previewing. I suspected the clients were playing the vendors against each other. It happens in every market and with every genre. When a prospect takes your quote or bid and "shops" it with the other guys, you'll NEVER get a gig from them unless you're ridiculously underpriced to begin with.. and that won't stop some of the more shameless customers.
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That is exactly what is going on in some cases. I have built great relationships with many of my annual clients, however, there will always be those that just can't get a "good enough" deal and will shop around until they feel that they are "getting more than their money's worth."
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Marjan Milosevic said:
That system is proven to work if you want it to work. So it is up to the owners to have a good crews.
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Hello Marjan.

I actually have to operators fairly close to me who have "divided the business". One does sound only, the other has lights, some trussing and maybe a few stage decks as well as a pub-style concert setup and a SOS system or two. Neither has projectors, screens, etc.

They are working together all the time, even going on tours together. I think the reason this works well for them is:

- One has passion for lighting, the other for audio - so inventory has evolved "naturally".
- They are already good friends, so there is trust.
- Most prospective clients view them as experts in their respective fields.

From a purely business standpoint: "OK, guys, let's do this from now on" I think it would be hard, but I also agree that the OP should sit down and have a talk with the other guys in his area. If nothing else, perhaps they could devise a price list, cross-rent agreement and discount system.

The way it works here, even most fairly fierce competitors get a very reasonable discount off of eachother so that if a client calls around to "check the list price" they won't see huge differences, but whoever "lands" the gig will be left with a little something for his trouble regarding transport, envoicing, etc.

Not talking about renting entire systems, here, but things like "provider A needs cable ramps for a gig he otherwise has everything for" or "provider B is self-sufficient, but doesn't own a generator".
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Dick Rees said:
I think what Marjan is getting at is to get together and form one "real" company instead of having three part-time people with day jobs all looking for crumbs on the floor. It's a different world out there providing for his market as opposed to primarily designing installs and selling gear......
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So you have part time companies providing for shows of 20k+?
Really?
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

John Chiara said:
So you have part time companies providing for shows of 20k+?
Really?
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It probably depends on 'how you count". For example: a county fair may have 20K people come through the door, but the performance area may only be 1000 or so.

Depends on how you look at it.

It is a different thing entirely to sell 20K tickets to a specific concert.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Ivan Beaver said:
It probably depends on 'how you count". For example: a county fair may have 20K people come through the door, but the performance area may only be 1000 or so.

Depends on how you look at it.

It is a different thing entirely to sell 20K tickets to a specific concert.
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So true, we had 50K come through for a Ribfest last summer, can we put that number on our resume :D~:-D~:grin:
 
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