Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

FWIW, I think that you should learn how to mix analog and then move to digital afterwards. Most of the consoles are still designed with the people who have been mixing for years in mind, not to mention that you learn all the "analog tricks" that become available at the press of a button in digital. Digital is a step up in terms of usability, so logically it should be a higher level of console for a higher level of engineer.
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Max Warasila said:
FWIW, I think that you should learn how to mix analog and then move to digital afterwards. Most of the consoles are still designed with the people who have been mixing for years in mind, not to mention that you learn all the "analog tricks" that become available at the press of a button in digital. Digital is a step up in terms of usability, so logically it should be a higher level of console for a higher level of engineer.
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Except...
It's kind of like keyboards and pianos, or acoustic and electric guitars. If a digital console was just a digital version of analog, then possibly. Mixing on digital, while similar, is not the same. Many of the earlier or low-budget digital options were attempts to make digital behave like analog (LS9, M7CL, Presonus, etc), while the more mature digital options 'think' differently than analog. Midas, Digico, Avid, iLive, etc come to mind. There is more R&D invested in the process of mixing by manufacturers, rather than simply emulating. Why purposefully learn to think how an analog setup 'thinks', only to then have to re-learn how to think how current digital consoles 'think'? Why learn how to hand-code HTML and Javascript and other languages, rather than simply fire up a drag and drop web page creation program?
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Caleb Dick said:
When I walk up to an analog console - my thoughts are
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MY thoughts are:
%&^ (*&^@! Now I have to go grab five guys to move this F-ing thing....oh? and it won't fit through our elevators that go to front of house? You mean I have to take it around to the other side of the building, through a pebble stone courtyard...and it's 106 degrees outside and 97 percent humidity out? Just so you can have a console with faders that "feel" good under your precious baby soft finger tips and that you THINK sounds good to your golden ears even though no one else in the room can hear the different between your 600lb $400,000 console with its British EQ and a $400 Mackie because the HVAC system in our building makes too much noise to tell the difference between the two.

Yes, I prefer digital for a whole bunch of reasons, not the least of which is the ease of patching, on board effects and dynamics, scene storage, a more informative user interface, and the ability to patch and route inputs and outputs directly to a computer through the network. So, yeah...
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Max Warasila said:
FWIW, I think that you should learn how to mix analog and then move to digital afterwards. Most of the consoles are still designed with the people who have been mixing for years in mind, not to mention that you learn all the "analog tricks" that become available at the press of a button in digital. Digital is a step up in terms of usability, so logically it should be a higher level of console for a higher level of engineer.
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Don't confuse learning proper signal flow and gain structure with having to "learn analog consoles".

If you want to learn a digital console that is completely different from anything else out there, go get an LCS or D-Mitri system. It will do A-N-Y-Thing you want it to...and if it doesn't you can just write a python script to do it.
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Caleb Dick said:
Except...
It's kind of like keyboards and pianos, or acoustic and electric guitars. If a digital console was just a digital version of analog, then possibly. Mixing on digital, while similar, is not the same. Many of the earlier or low-budget digital options were attempts to make digital behave like analog (LS9, M7CL, Presonus, etc), while the more mature digital options 'think' differently than analog. Midas, Digico, Avid, iLive, etc come to mind. There is more R&D invested in the process of mixing by manufacturers, rather than simply emulating. Why purposefully learn to think how an analog setup 'thinks', only to then have to re-learn how to think how current digital consoles 'think'? Why learn how to hand-code HTML and Javascript and other languages, rather than simply fire up a drag and drop web page creation program?
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Totally agree except on one thing: If you know what's going on in the HTML and Java, you'll be able to fix things when a drag and drop web page goes awry.

Justice C. Bigler said:
Don't confuse learning proper signal flow and gain structure with having to "learn analog consoles".

If you want to learn a digital console that is completely different from anything else out there, go get an LCS or D-Mitri system. It will do A-N-Y-Thing you want it to...and if it doesn't you can just write a python script to do it.
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Definitely true. I just personally think that it's a bit easier to learn signal flow and such on the analog consoles. Seems to make sense to more people I come across down here at the ankle biter level. They just seem to "get" analog concepts better.
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Brandon Blakeney said:
If analog were not still better you would not see so many A-list artists still carrying them. And it seems to be the artists that really care about quality such as The Stones, RHCP, Fleetwood Mac, George Thorogood, Brad Paisley, Muse etc....
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Ugh. Really? You think the other 100 or so 'A-Listers' who carry digital boards don't care about audio quality?

I'm sorry, but statements like that just highlight a lack of experience.

Engineers pick their consoles for sooo many reasons. Every FOH engineer who is well-paid and busy cares deeply about audio quality on their shows, and that absolutely factors into their console choices. But so does comfort, familiarity, money (believe me, if I owned an XL4, I'd me making sure I was hiring it to production...), ergonomics, etc...

It is an antiquated notion that digital is somehow inferior in terms of quality to analog. Its just not true. Why do you think Midas stopped making the XL3/XL4? This is especially true in live sound, where you can't guarantee all the essentials for good quality analog audio.

People view the analog world through rose tinted glasses. Have we forgotten the days of swapping out modules, dirty gain pots, chasing down grounding issues, swapping PSUs, outboard issues?

I spend half my life putting big audio systems in for big shows, and they almost always entail a primary digital system, and a backup analog system. You don't even wanna know how much time gets spent trying to minimise the noise floor on the analog side.
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Brandon Blakeney said:
Maybe he got a new crew or something....that comment was based on this video from a year ago:

CREW FOH PODCAST - YouTube
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Is George Thorogood big enough to actually carry his own gear? Or do you think his production guys just hires gear locally and takes whatever decent quality console is available that they don't have to pay extra for. I guess what I'm really getting at, is that I don't think George Thorogood really qualify as an A list artist..maybe B, B-.
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Chris Johnson said:
Why do you think Midas stopped making the XL3/XL4?
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Just for some clarification, the XL3 was replaced by the Heritage range, and the hand wired XL4 was discontinued as it could not be manufactured any more due to ROHS compliancy, and to redesign the internal boards with ROHS compliant components would have pushed (the already substantial) cost even higher.
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

One thing I have wondered is whether any manufacturers will continue to make large format analog consoles going forward. Surely there will at least be some market, or will people just be forced to have old analog desks refurbished if they refuse digital?
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Brandon Blakeney said:
or will people just be forced to have old analog desks refurbished if they refuse digital?
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Yes, as long as the parts are available anyway. And as long as there are knowledgeable people willing to work on them. Keep in mind the factory won't support them forever. And the warehouse of parts will dwindle. At some point instead of swapping channel strips it will be component level repairs everytime. And scouring the internet for 'parts' boards. And the people who will to work on old consoles will dwindle until it becomes a premium price, niche market (which it kind of is already) due to the trouble with getting parts, the weight of the console, etc....
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Alan Hamilton said:
Yes, as long as the parts are available anyway. And as long as there are knowledgeable people willing to work on them. Keep in mind the factory won't support them forever. And the warehouse of parts will dwindle. At some point instead of swapping channel strips it will be component level repairs everytime. And scouring the internet for 'parts' boards. And the people who will to work on old consoles will dwindle until it becomes a premium price, niche market (which it kind of is already) due to the trouble with getting parts, the weight of the console, etc....
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I think you are probably correct. I come from the world of broadcast engineering (FM radio) where we still use vacuum tube transmitters from 30 and 40 years ago! The design of the equipment has changed little in that time period and parts are usually easy to come by and overnightable in emergencies. Like with everything, there has been a push in my industry in recent years to convert to solid state transmitters (similar to the analog/digital debate in live sound). However, many people are finding that the solid state fm transmitters are not as reliable (albeit easier for laymen to service) and more prone to lightning damage.

Easier, flashier, newer, lighter does not always equate to being "better" in absolute terms but only from one's perspective. My personal opinion is that quality in many industries, especially automotive, peaked in the late 90's early 2000's and is now being sacrificed for price and efficiency. The CRT tv that sits in my bedroom is from 1978, I wonder what the life expectancy of an LCD tv is?
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Generally speaking, the differences in sound of boards is most apparent to me when I am the one at the board. I don't hear a concert and go, "oh, I wish he were using a board other than brand x". But I do remember being at a board and going, "I wish I had something better than a BM word". Or, "I sure do like this better than the....", or experiencing the minor differences between Soundcraft boards.

I don't fill many riders any more, but it seemed to me that in my world, (Read: not Rolling Stones), the people who refused a digital board were the dinosaurs, not the analog boards. They were either to inflexible, or more likely, too stupid/lazy to adjust to the new technology.

I feel lucky to have sold my Midas 200XL this summer for $5K (minus the power supplies), and it seems to have gone to an appreciative home. I will miss it, but it was no longer practical, and hadn't come out of hibernation for maybe a year and a half.

Max, I am not sure what to think of your comment about learning on analog boards. I used to think that everyone using a digital camera should have to use a Pentax K-1000 for x number of rolls of film to learn or at least be familiar with the triangle of exposure. But after seeing how people with no experience capture images of excellent quality, by using the camera to do what they want to do, I am not so sure of my premise. On the other hand, I don't think that being at the board is so much of an artistic experience, as it is trying to pass on what the artist intends. So as to "analog tricks", I have had it up to here with someone at the board who is in love with their FX racks. (For over the top hand wringing and teeth gnashing one should peruse the threads on photography forums or blogs about how digital is ruining the business aspect of photography.)

I do remember providing sound for acapella groups about 10 years ago at BYU. Their board ops were all used to using small digital boards, and were overwhelmed by having everything available to them at one glance on a digital board.

Chris Johnson said:
Analog is not dead because of sound quality, ...

...cheaper to run, and more flexible.
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Too true. Just the savings in transportation costs of copper and rubber is huge.
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Jack Arnott said:
<snip>

Max, I am not sure what to think of your comment about learning on analog boards. I used to think that everyone using a digital camera should have to use a Pentax K-1000 for x number of rolls of film to learn or at least be familiar with the triangle of exposure. But after seeing how people with no experience capture images of excellent quality, by using the camera to do what they want to do, I am not so sure of my premise. On the other hand, I don't think that being at the board is so much of an artistic experience, as it is trying to pass on what the artist intends. So as to "analog tricks", I have had it up to here with someone at the board who is in love with their FX racks. (For over the top hand wringing and teeth gnashing one should peruse the threads on photography forums or blogs about how digital is ruining the business aspect of photography.)
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I've just found that the analog layout tends to make more sense to people when running the boards for the first time. It appears that the reason for this is that the cables give a clear visual aid to where stuff goes, and the markings on each individual piece of equipment as well as the "knob for each parameter" approach on analog gear tends to make it easier to understand for newer engineers. It's the tactile approach to things.

On the totally different topic of photography, there's a lot to be said about cameras and that discussion just doesn't belong here in full.
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Max Warasila said:
I've just found that the analog layout tends to make more sense to people when running the boards for the first time. It appears that the reason for this is that the cables give a clear visual aid to where stuff goes, and the markings on each individual piece of equipment as well as the "knob for each parameter" approach on analog gear tends to make it easier to understand for newer engineers. It's the tactile approach to things.
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Ah, then I only have a problem with the "analog tricks" term. I would go for proper gain structure and signal flow
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Jack Arnott said:
Ah, then I only have a problem with the "analog tricks" term. I would go for proper gain structure and signal flow
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When I saw the term "analog tricks" I figured Max meant something entirely different than clipping headamps and buses, which is what it seems people are implying was their understanding of what he meant.

To me, "analog tricks" are all manner of stuff you can do on a console other than put stuff into the XLRs, using EQ and faders + AUX sends.

Because of the complexity of the user interface of many digital desks, even knowledgeable techs sometimes get stuck in that rut, forgetting stuff they used all the time on analog desks, because the 1:1 interface of connectors and knobs was so self-explanatory.

I'm talking about things like using Y-splits, sidechaining, using the insert points of groups as inputs/outputs, parallel busing, etc, etc,

Curious to hear what Max really meant :)
 
Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

kristianjohnsen said:
When I saw the term "analog tricks" I figured Max meant something entirely different than clipping headamps and buses, which is what it seems people are implying was their understanding of what he meant.

To me, "analog tricks" are all manner of stuff you can do on a console other than put stuff into the XLRs, using EQ and faders + AUX sends.

Because of the complexity of the user interface of many digital desks, even knowledgeable techs sometimes get stuck in that rut, forgetting stuff they used all the time on analog desks, because the 1:1 interface of connectors and knobs was so self-explanatory.

I'm talking about things like using Y-splits, sidechaining, using the insert points of groups as inputs/outputs, parallel busing, etc, etc,

Curious to hear what Max really meant :)
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Sorry for the response taking two days, been busier than normal.

That's exactly what I meant by "analog tricks". Because you have things like patching wherever you want so easily, it seems to make sooooooo much more sense to figure them out on an analog console rather than a digital console where you might need to go to a training to figure out how to do stuff regarding inserts, side chains, and crazy patching that is simple in the analog world.
 
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