Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

[Chris Johnson]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Sorry for the response taking two days, been busier than normal.

That's exactly what I meant by "analog tricks". Because you have things like patching wherever you want so easily, it seems to make sooooooo much more sense to figure them out on an analog console rather than a digital console where you might need to go to a training to figure out how to do stuff regarding inserts, side chains, and crazy patching that is simple in the analog world.

But couldn't it equally be said that if all you'd ever known was digital, that there would be a learning curve (albeit a small one!) implementing the same things in the analog world?

I guess the reality is these days, isn't it best to train new engineers on the tools they'll actually be using?

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

But couldn't it equally be said that if all you'd ever known was digital, that there would be a learning curve (albeit a small one!) implementing the same things in the analog world?

I guess the reality is these days, isn't it best to train new engineers on the tools they'll actually be using?

I've mentioned this before, but I've now encountered more than 1 BE who's never mixed a show on analog FOH.

 

[Jay Barracato]

I've mentioned this before, but I've now encountered more than 1 BE who's never mixed a show on analog FOH.

Went at it old school today at a festival. Two full steps between where I had to bend down to see the settings on the SPX and where the fader on the return to the board was.

At times I felt like I was doing laps.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

But couldn't it equally be said that if all you'd ever known was digital, that there would be a learning curve (albeit a small one!) implementing the same things in the analog world?

I guess the reality is these days, isn't it best to train new engineers on the tools they'll actually be using?

Of course, but without a manual, if you walk up to an analog console and then a digital console, which one would a completely new person be able to operate more easily? I don't know for sure, to be honest.

In the analog world, everything that you can use is typically visible on the outside of the equipment (internal jumpers are another story), but in the digital world, not so much. Assuming that every engineer that used a console was properly trained on the features of the equipment they used, this wouldn't matter. But the reality is that many of the engineers out there aren't properly "trained." They might be damn good at mixing, have a good ear, and know what to do, but teaching yourself with everything presented on the front of a rack mount and patch bay is probably easier than when sorting through layers on a digital console.

However, this is all fixed by a properly written manual. RTFM solves many problems.

The first "mix" I ever did was on a rack mount line mixer at a school talent show. Everything I needed to operate was in front of me in that rack. All I'm saying is that when you have a knob, fader, or button for every thing, you'll likely wonder "what on earth does THAT shiny thing do?"

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Of course, but without a manual, if you walk up to an analog console and then a digital console, which one would a completely new person be able to operate more easily? I don't know for sure, to be honest.

Do clueless, untrained people often need to understand gate side-chaining, multiple input patching, and the like? If you're comparing an SD-9 to an Ashly LX-308B then you've got a point, I guess. Most of the newbies I work with would be more intimidated on a PM4K than a mid-range digital for basic turn the fader up and down mixing.

The war has been over for a long time. Whether there are some advantages to analog (there are) is not really relevant, as no one will likely ever again build large format analog consoles (other than APB, which seems the holdout), since fewer and fewer people will be willing to invest the cartage, weight, setup effort and general hassle of 2000lbs of FOH when there are perfectly good, perfectly musical sounding and much more functional and affordable digital options.

Im sure Rupert Neve's grand kid will build some esoteric desk for some studio in 2035, but the rest of us will have put the adding-machines away.

 

[Brian Bolly]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Most of the newbies I work with would be more intimidated on a PM4K than a mid-range digital for basic turn the fader up and down mixing.

I often wonder if this sort of thing holds true because there isn't four feet of knobs, buttons and switches for each channel in front of them on a digi desk, or if because this generation of newbies don't know a world without personal computers, cell phones, and touch screens.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Do clueless, untrained people often need to understand gate side-chaining, multiple input patching, and the like? If you're comparing an SD-9 to an Ashly LX-308B then you've got a point, I guess. Most of the newbies I work with would be more intimidated on a PM4K than a mid-range digital for basic turn the fader up and down mixing.

The war has been over for a long time. Whether there are some advantages to analog (there are) is not really relevant, as no one will likely ever again build large format analog consoles (other than APB, which seems the holdout), since fewer and fewer people will be willing to invest the cartage, weight, setup effort and general hassle of 2000lbs of FOH when there are perfectly good, perfectly musical sounding and much more functional and affordable digital options.

Im sure Rupert Neve's grand kid will build some esoteric desk for some studio in 2035, but the rest of us will have put the adding-machines away.

Yes, the war has been won. Digital is more cost effective, and in the end, can be easier to mix on when you know what you are doing. Installs can still get away with analog, especially when you can get a console like the OP did.

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

I often wonder if this sort of thing holds true because there isn't four feet of knobs, buttons and switches for each channel in front of them on a digi desk, or if because this generation of newbies don't know a world without personal computers, cell phones, and touch screens.

I think it´s related to how you interact with the desk. I trained a bunch of high school kids earlier this year on a Vi1. They were up and running on that desk after seconds, could find their way in the menus, patching, routing etc. because it was a familiar interface(touch screen). But their mixing skills was modest at best, knowing how to operate a piece of equipment is not necessary the same as making it "sound good".

People with analog background have mixing experience and know what they want, so they are frustrated by the unfamiliar interface of a digital desk because it is different fron their normal work flow. Once you get past the threshold of familiarity your mix should be great

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about how technology can assist in the mechanical aspects of "mixing", but there will still need to be a human with ears that can hear what is going on and compare that to the ideal mix he has inside his head. The difference will be in how we translate the mix in the operators head, to reality. I have no reason to expect we won't get smarter about how we do that. Our equipment gets smarter every generation. We do not need to hang on to our old ways past their time.

JR

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

I think it´s related to how you interact with the desk. I trained a bunch of high school kids earlier this year on a Vi1. They were up and running on that desk after seconds, could find their way in the menus, patching, routing etc. because it was a familiar interface(touch screen). But their mixing skills was modest at best, knowing how to operate a piece of equipment is not necessary the same as making it "sound good".

People with analog background have mixing experience and know what they want, so they are frustrated by the unfamiliar interface of a digital desk because it is different fron their normal work flow. Once you get past the threshold of familiarity your mix should be great

I always tell people in my "orientation" classes (for a new install) that the intent of the class is NOT how to mix-that takes years of experience-but rather to give them a feel for the mechanics of the system.

DO NOT expect to walk away and have been "trained" in sound.

The mechanics of getting around on a console and being able to mix are very different things.

Just like cooking. It is one thing to know how to operate the oven and blender-but quite another to make a great cake.

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

I always tell people in my "orientation" classes (for a new install) that the intent of the class is NOT how to mix-that takes years of experience-but rather to give them a feel for the mechanics of the system.

DO NOT expect to walk away and have been "trained" in sound.

The mechanics of getting around on a console and being able to mix are very different things.

Just like cooking. It is one thing to know how to operate the oven and blender-but quite another to make a great cake.

I tell the union stage hands in my training classes the exact same thing. They all come in expecting me to be able to teach them how to be qualified sound engineers and good mixers in about three hours time. It's just not going to happen.

Tim, I'd like to say that I can count on one hand the number of shows that I have ever mixed on an analog console. But I suspect that it's a few more than that. That being said, I am much more comfortable on a digital console than on an analog. Partly due to the fact that I can into the business relatively late and the digital transition was already well under way.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Tim, I'd like to say that I can count on one hand the number of shows that I have ever mixed on an analog console. But I suspect that it's a few more than that. That being said, I am much more comfortable on a digital console than on an analog. Partly due to the fact that I can into the business relatively late and the digital transition was already well under way.

Maybe it is because I am just old-but I feel a solid understanding of an analog console REALLY helps. A digital conosle is just trying to emulate an analog console-just with a bunch of extra features.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Maybe it is because I am just old-but I feel a solid understanding of an analog console REALLY helps. A digital conosle is just trying to emulate an analog console-just with a bunch of extra features.

I am not sure what understanding an analog console really means? In fact many people who write about them don't really understand them that well IMO.

While some digital consoles mimic control interface features that look like the earlier analog consoles, this is mainly because the old guys who approve purchase decisions lack imagination so it makes they more comfortable about signing big ticket checks.

While i still expect consoles to shrink and eventually disappear into other functional blocks that won't go away (speakers< mic, etc), the classic definition of what a console does will evolve too.

In the future when mics just deliver their output wirelessly to some digital network, and have the EQ and effects inside, consoles will not need to mess with that trivia.

The mechanics of mixing (faders to a master output) may evolve too, as cybernetic help steps up to take over some of the light lifting.

I don't see analog or digital consoles, I see consoles. I do not see any need to read and write latin, nor do i find much value in learning how to use slide rules, and doing math by hand. While after the machines take over some old skills could become useful again (actual science fiction, Assimov IIRC).

JR

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

I am not sure what understanding an analog console really means?

JR

I was referring to signal flow-routing-returning effects-inserting comps/gates-buss overload-levels within the signal flow etc.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Something else to consider: Yes technology is always evolving, but are the manufacturers pushing new products onto the market faster than necessary? The "trend setters" whoever they might be, A-list BE's, Industry Mag Writers, etc...are they in a way "forcing" those closer to the bottom to change to "newer, hipper" products before really necessary. For example I bought an A&H console from a church that went digital almost 6 years ago now and have never had more than a minor issue with that console, so the question is was their money really well spent? and was that transition necessary for them at that point in time?

"Conform or be Cast Out" -RUSH (and yes I know Rush has a digital console, LOL!)

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

I was referring to signal flow-routing-returning effects-inserting comps/gates-buss overload-levels within the signal flow etc.

If these's a bus inside a digital console it connects the memory to peripherals and CPU. At least the digital hardware industry spells it correctly ('bus').

Send-returns are archaic leftovers from days past when effects were separate expensive free standing units. These days they are more likely to be built in or software plug-ins. (programs, not literally things that plug in).

An audio bus in the context of a digital mixer may still be called a bus (for you old guys) but is no longer a wire connecting circuits together. Instead that function is accomplished by a specific register or memory location that numerical sums get added to and stored in. Overload or saturation is possible inside a digital console if a fixed length digital word that equals full scale dynamic range is used, but as often as not the digital path is capable of more dynamic range than the output stream so overload doesn't happen like in analog consoles. If the output is too loud you just turn it down. No harm no foul, and no clipping.

Thinking about a new technology console in terms of the old technology may lead you to worry about things that are no longer concerns. The old analog console is a familiar construct for many of us, but it may not always be that familiar. We are still in the bridge era between where analog and digital consoles co-exist, and later when analog consoles are just distant memories. As the years go on, the digital console will drift further away from resembling an analog mixer.

Of course the future hasn't happened yet so I can't really report on it. This is just my best guess.

JR

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Something else to consider: Yes technology is always evolving, but are the manufacturers pushing new products onto the market faster than necessary? The "trend setters" whoever they might be, A-list BE's, Industry Mag Writers, etc...are they in a way "forcing" those closer to the bottom to change to "newer, hipper" products before really necessary. For example I bought an A&H console from a church that went digital almost 6 years ago now and have never had more than a minor issue with that console, so the question is was their money really well spent? and was that transition necessary for them at that point in time?

"Conform or be Cast Out" -RUSH (and yes I know Rush has a digital console, LOL!)

I think you'd have to ask the church about their needs, what aspects of those the analog desk didn't meet, and if they're satisfied with they digital mixer.

While you're at it, why not cast some aspersions at the automobile industry: very seldom do folks NEED to replace their car, but many WANT to do so regularly, based on marketing.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

Something else to consider: Yes technology is always evolving, but are the manufacturers pushing new products onto the market faster than necessary? The "trend setters" whoever they might be, A-list BE's, Industry Mag Writers, etc...are they in a way "forcing" those closer to the bottom to change to "newer, hipper" products before really necessary. For example I bought an A&H console from a church that went digital almost 6 years ago now and have never had more than a minor issue with that console, so the question is was their money really well spent? and was that transition necessary for them at that point in time?

"Conform or be Cast Out" -RUSH (and yes I know Rush has a digital console, LOL!)

My own church and a number of other churches I work with all have rotating worship teams, and a couple of them have different services with very different styles with different input patches during the week. Most of the churches I work with have gone digital and love the show recall features, as well as the other things digital boards are good at - having full outboard for every channel, smaller desk footprint, etc.

The few thousand dollars that a reasonable digital board costs these days in many cases is a small cost compared to the hassle of trying to re-patch, re-EQ, and re-monitor everything every week. I'm sure there are a few rogue tech guys around that got their church to buy them a new toy that wasn't really needed, but in my experience that's not an accurate generalization.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

I guess the reality is these days, isn't it best to train new engineers on the tools they'll actually be using?

At some point, yes, but is it the most effective way to teach the basics before getting to that point? Starting with only basic tools seems to often result in much stronger basic skills and a greater appreciation of the added tech including how and when to apply it or not.

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Re: Sign of the times. I just bought this for $1,300.

My own church and a number of other churches I work with all have rotating worship teams, and a couple of them have different services with very different styles with different input patches during the week. Most of the churches I work with have gone digital and love the show recall features, as well as the other things digital boards are good at - having full outboard for every channel, smaller desk footprint, etc.

The few thousand dollars that a reasonable digital board costs these days in many cases is a small cost compared to the hassle of trying to re-patch, re-EQ, and re-monitor everything every week. I'm sure there are a few rogue tech guys around that got their church to buy them a new toy that wasn't really needed, but in my experience that's not an accurate generalization.

TJ nailed it - there is often a hidden cost (money and/or time) to staying with analog, even if the item in question is not broken. From our experience (church installs), the percentage of churches buying shiney new for the sake of shiney new is quite small - less than 1%. It would be like saying, "Don't sell off the VHS player, it still works." Yes I could convert video files on computer to VHS format, but why?

For signal flow, etc - how many young'ins today (including myself, even though over 30) think in linear fashion? Versus how many think in random fashion? It seems like most are used to digital anything as a powerful 'brain' crunching away behind the scenes, with some sort of simplified interface to access just what is needed, knowing there is a lot more going on that isn't needed to know intimately. Adding a gate - is knowing signal flow essential? I say no - I want a fast, simple way for the 'brain' to provide gating to a channel, with options on what is does and doesn't affect. Thinking in terms of linear flow can be (is?) limiting when digital isn't constrained by it.

Some people think in linear terms, some in random terms. It's interesting to study and see. I happen to be the latter, maybe that's another reason why digital seems to 'click' easier?