So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Ok, everyone, calm down a bit. I appreciate everyone's input and experienced. My original question was kind of open-ended, so it is no worry if the discussion wanders a bit.

On the topic of extension cords - I would love to get rid of my hokey cords and get good quality black ones. Can some one recommend a good source for these?

Let me introduce a new question - what kind of safety issues have caused you to either not perform or call the show? Here in Florida, summer thunderstorms are a frequent cause of concern, as lightning, hail, and high winds are normal almost daily from June through October.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Jordan Lahr said:
I'm actually going to have to disagree with you there. Being in the Midwest, in an area not really well situated for concerts and the like, Orange extension cords are definitely not a sign its unsafe. Less professional? maybe but generally not unsafe. Just locally I know of several local and some regional touring bands that use orange extension cords to power their LED lights, Getting power to their guitar/bass amps, as well as several other pieces of equipment.

I think a lot of us get too stuck up on gear we forget where we originated from and technically still use (albeit different colors). a 12/3 SO is still SO even if its orange, blue, green, black, or yellow.
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Most orange extension cords are not SO or even SJO. They are usually SJT. I've occasionally seen yellow SO, never seen orange SO. It may exist I'm sure, but it's rare and I would be suspect if I saw orange.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Ryan Lantzy said:
Most orange extension cords are not SO or even SJO. They are usually SJT. I've occasionally seen yellow SO, never seen orange SO. It may exist I'm sure, but it's rare and I would be suspect if I saw orange.
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It isn't a color issue, it's a code issue. The NEC states that entertainment power cords in the path of people need to be 'hard service' cords with a 600 volt insulation rating - not the 'junior' (J) version with only a 300 volt rating. Additionally, anything used outside must include a 'W' for water resistant. The 'T' simply means the insulation is Thermoplastic and is stiffer, it has no other implications.

The only code exception, I believe, is cords less than 20 feet, such as adapters, breakouts, breakins, and those sort of things.

So, as a guideline, anyone doing production must have cords without a 'J' and if outdoors must have a 'W' in the cord type.

If someone could quote the code section that explains this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Every molded power cord I've ever seen has been made with Thermoplastic insulation. Few of these molded cables are lacking the J to be used in entertainment power, and even fewer of these cables have a 'W' in their cord type. Any odd color cables at any concert should be immediate reason to examine the cable more closely and to closely scrutinize the rig to see where other shortcuts were taken. The shortcuts may not even be intentional - how many people on this forum know the NEC by the letter?

Is there a regulatory book like the NEC but pertaining to entertainment rigging?
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Stuart Høgg said:
So does that mean that you can just daisy-chain 19ft cords together, and make them out of whatever you like? :twisted:
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There is a code limit of how many disconnects can be in a feeder cable. Not sure of specifics, though, or if that applies to extension cords. There is also a code limit for voltage drop (5%) from the service entrance.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Silas Pradetto said:
The only code exception, I believe, is cords less than 20 feet, such as adapters, breakouts, breakins, and those sort of things.

If someone could quote the code section that explains this, it would be greatly appreciated.
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Silas,

NEC 520.68(A) Exception 4

-6m maximum link of SJ-derivative cords in the form of breakout.
-Must be supported over entire length off the ground by "pipe, truss, tower, or other substantial support."
-Must connect a single multipole connector containing at least two circuits to multiple two pole, 3 wire connectors.
-Overcurrent device must not exceed 20A.

This essentially describes Socapex breakouts off the ground and tied to the tent or lighting truss.

I don't have the handbook readily available, but I think a Socapex breaking (i.e. 2 pole, 3 wire to single multipole) is also probably legal when connected to a support structure, as it is the reverse of the outlined.

There is no provision for a SJ-jacketed extension cord of the configuration we normally think of as an extension cord.
 
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Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Stuart Høgg said:
So does that mean that you can just daisy-chain 19ft cords together, and make them out of whatever you like? <img src="images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Twisted Evil" smilieid="25" class="inlineimg">
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Stuart,

The answer is no, you cannot. SJ cords have a very specific usage condition, essentially referring to Socapex breakouts. See my post here.
 
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Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Silas Pradetto said:
It isn't a color issue, it's a code issue. The NEC states that entertainment power cords in the path of people need to be 'hard service' cords with a 600 volt insulation rating - not the 'junior' (J) version with only a 300 volt rating. Additionally, anything used outside must include a 'W' for water resistant. The 'T' simply means the insulation is Thermoplastic and is stiffer, it has no other implications.
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I never claimed it was "about color" just that the color typically indicates the wrong type of cord per code. Thermoplastic most certainly does have other implications, typically made from PVC, other things to consider are fire ratings and the toxic fumes it gives off if (when) it vaporizes.

FWIW, I think the 2011 NEC doesn't make exception for using Junior grade cable anywhere anymore... It's all gotta be extra-hard now. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

So, as a guideline, anyone doing production must have cords without a 'J' and if outdoors must have a 'W' in the cord type.

If someone could quote the code section that explains this, it would be greatly appreciated.
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While the W indicates that it's suitable for wet locations and is sunlight resistant. Whether that is required for stage use outdoors I don't know. I've seen plenty of SO and SOO used outdoors and NEC 2011 Table 400.4 specifices SO and SOO are suitable for "damp locations." What is the difference between damp and wet? Judgement call, but go with SOOW to be safe. Note 6 specifically says: "Types G, G-GC, S, SC... SO, SOO... etc." are permitted for use on theater stages in garages and elsewhere were flexible cords are permitted by this Code."
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Ryan Lantzy said:
I never claimed it was "about color" just that the color typically indicates the wrong type of cord per code. Thermoplastic most certainly does have other implications, typically made from PVC, other things to consider are fire ratings and the toxic fumes it gives off if (when) it vaporizes.

FWIW, I think the 2011 NEC doesn't make exception for using Junior grade cable anywhere anymore... It's all gotta be extra-hard now. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.



While the W indicates that it's suitable for wet locations and is sunlight resistant. Whether that is required for stage use outdoors I don't know. I've seen plenty of SO and SOO used outdoors and NEC 2011 Table 400.4 specifices SO and SOO are suitable for "damp locations." What is the difference between damp and wet? Judgement call, but go with SOOW to be safe. Note 6 specifically says: "Types G, G-GC, S, SC... SO, SOO... etc." are permitted for use on theater stages in garages and elsewhere were flexible cords are permitted by this Code."
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Thanks for the clarification.

Are there any fire rating requirements for cables used on theater stages? Or anything prohibiting the use of cords made with Thermoplastic?

I have yet another question: how are IEC power supply cords allowed? They are always both J and T, and almost never W rated. Seemingly every low or middle of the road LED light and powered speaker, not to mention every other bit of normal rack gear, uses these cords. Especially in the case of LED lighting and powered monitors, though, they are right out in the open on the stage floor.
 
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Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Milt Hathaway said:
There are many things in these pictures that you don't want to see on any roof you are within 50' of:

http://gallery.me.com/fitzcosound#100008
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Milt's posted those photos before, a few of them are subtle but most are not. I believe those are all from the same stage setup... makes me shiver.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Bennett Prescott said:
Milt's posted those photos before, a few of them are subtle but most are not. I believe those are all from the same stage setup... makes me shiver.
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Yup, at the old PSW. Turned out that the owner was also on PSW, and went on to correct most of the problems discussed in that thread.

I'd label them, but I think people learn more when they figure it out for themselves.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Silas Pradetto said:
I have yet another question: how are IEC power supply cords allowed? They are always both J and T, and almost never W rated. Seemingly every low or middle of the road LED light and powered speaker, not to mention every other bit of normal rack gear, uses these cords. Especially in the case of LED lighting and powered monitors, though, they are right out in the open on the stage floor.
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As a point of comparison, in the UK there are no similar constraints on cable type when used on stage. There are different requirements for outdoor events, and good practice would lean towards rubberised cable, but if I want to run an extension to, say, a small LED fixture, using 0.5sqmm PVC cable, there is no regulation stopping me. And it's worth remembering that we are at 240v.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Rigging? THE book is Harry Donovan's "Entertainment Rigging"... But it's not a Code book in the way we think of the NEC. Your municipality or state may have building codes or life safety codes that apply to temporary structures, however.
 
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Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Tim McCulloch said:
Unequal guying is another. If guy lines on opposite sides of a structure are at noticeably different angles, the tension that keeps the towers in place is not equal on both sides. One will fail before the other.
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Trying not to make a topic swerve here, but in the events of this recent trajedy, this thought crossed my mind and may be the dumbest thought or question of rigging ever, but now that Tim has made this remark, I must ask. Is there not a way to rig these super stages with guys in a manner that in the event of failure, the stage will always collapse in one certian direction? i.e.- away from innocent bystanders?


Or should I re-phrase that to say, can these stages be rigged with guy wires so that they are always stronger in the direction away from the crowd. I know there are still musicians and roadies and techs all behind stage also and I'm not saying they should be an any place more unsafe than anyone else. But with the general mass of people that is standing out front of these things it would make sense that there should be no way it should ever fall forward unless due to some freak failure.
 
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Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Silas Pradetto said:
Thanks for the clarification.

Are there any fire rating requirements for cables used on theater stages? Or anything prohibiting the use of cords made with Thermoplastic?
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I'm not sure. For the record, I rechecked 400.4 does allow ST, STO, STOO, STOOW, on "theater stages" as well... that list was long and I didn't feel like retyping it all out, skipped right over those. So it doesn't prohibit thermoplastic. S, S, SC, and SJ (thought not technically allowed it's a similar material) are most commonly seen in this industry and most literature I've found list them as flame retardant while ST anything isn't. I would imagine that is because one is rubber and one is plastic.

I have yet another question: how are IEC power supply cords allowed? They are always both J and T, and almost never W rated. Seemingly every low or middle of the road LED light and powered speaker, not to mention every other bit of normal rack gear, uses these cords. Especially in the case of LED lighting and powered monitors, though, they are right out in the open on the stage floor.
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I don't know for sure, but my guess is they are not covered by these sections because they are part of "cord and plug connected equipment." The sections pertaining to theater/live sound (520) are talking mainly about electrical supply and branch circuits. It does seem like grey area though. Forget IECs for a second though... if 520 does apply to literally everything on stage, you couldn't even have a little portable fan up there if it were equipped with an SJT cord. It also might fall under some other section that exempts cords under a certain length or current rating or something.

None-the-less, good question Silas.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Milt Hathaway said:
I'd label them, but I think people learn more when they figure it out for themselves.
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What??? So posting a picture and saying 'something's wrong in this picture' is better than actually highlighting what the problem is? Honesly, to the untrained eye, some things aren't all that obvious. And, based on the picture, those that actually set it up probably didn't see the problems either.

If you went in and said that the rigging is wrong, but didn't detail it, the chances of it getting fixed are slim to none.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Brian jojade said:
What??? So posting a picture and saying 'something's wrong in this picture' is better than actually highlighting what the problem is? Honesly, to the untrained eye, some things aren't all that obvious. And, based on the picture, those that actually set it up probably didn't see the problems either.

If you went in and said that the rigging is wrong, but didn't detail it, the chances of it getting fixed are slim to none.
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Actually, in this case it gave the roof owner the incentive to do proper research on the proper way to erect his roof and what needed to be corrected before it was deployed again. I'm certain other forum readers learned from the discussion also.
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Actually as I have several 25' 14 gauge IEC cords I use for amps and powers speakers that are SJT I wonder if they are "legal" ? They are black :lol: .
 
Re: So, what are some warning signs that a stage may be unsafe?

Not up to Code for outdoor use, where Code requires "Extra-hard service rated" cabling. The "J" is SJT stands for "Junior hard service." Indoors you can use it, outdoors you can't.

Outdoors, our work falls under NEC 525 regulations regarding fairs, carnivals, circuses and similar events. Indoors we come under 520. There are other Articles that are germane, including 200, 300, and 640.
 
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