Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

John Chiara said:
I have a show coming up and the provider for the event...a former friend and employer... Has already instructed his crew at other events that I am not allowed near his gear or his crew members. It seems to be a personal thing with him and I have never done anything to harm his gear...obviously...and the last show I attended his crew chief asked me for any advice on the system and then in our personal conversation accused me of playing politics and threatening his job security... I was talking about mix position and sub array coverage...not sure what he wanted me to comment on. Wonder how to have the band deal with the upcoming show. When I am providing the bands show is the bands show, and I just babysit to protect my gear and help him do the best show possible, but would never tell a band hired engineer he could not mix a show. This company hired me for years just to mix shows as that is my strong skill set.
What to do?
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Is it at all possible that you publicly ranted on one of the Internet pro audio forums about the sound quality of a sound system or a mix that sounded terrible to you? I think I've read a thread or 80 started by you on this very subject. And is it also possible that one or more of those rants could have been relating to the provider in the instance? Maybe, just maybe you burnt a bridge some where in the past and it is catching up with you. I don think I have ever read your posts talking in a positive way about anyone's mixes except your own. Even if you haven't ranted about this particular provider, maybe he figures that he won't let you???

Just sayin'
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS said:
Is it at all possible that you publicly ranted on one of the Internet pro audio forums about the sound quality of a sound system or a mix that sounded terrible to you? I think I've read a thread or 80 started by you on this very subject. And is it also possible that one or more of those rants could have been relating to the provider in the instance? Maybe, just maybe you burnt a bridge some where in the past and it is catching up with you. I don think I have ever read your posts talking in a positive way about anyone's mixes except your own. Even if you haven't ranted about this particular provider, maybe he figures that he won't let you???

Just sayin'
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Well, this is an audio forum so talking about audio....good, bad, whatever, and the cause of...real or percieved...should be appropriate. I have not been at or mentioned anything about this company's shows and would not name them if I did, and more important, if a provider would consider compromising a hired acts show to satisfy a personal grudge against anyone involved with their show, that is just crap.
I have kind of a personal issue as there are at least 12 sound companies within a 25 mile radius and as a result, stupid stuff gets thrown into the mix, and any reason to discredit seems fair game. If a touring band came through, and the BE was someone the provider had an issue with...again real it percieved, would they tell the band their engineer could not mix?
Of course not. Personal is personal... For whatever reason and should not affect the show. That's what Facebook and Craigslist are for....:)
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

A venue where I'm the house guy banned any BEs from touching the console after too many issues with bad BEs. Actually came down from the corporate level, and the reasoning was that it's detrimental to the "rep" of the venue. The final straw was a guy that came in and EQ'd everything (strips and house graphic!) before even listening and the venue's booking agent came in during the show and freaked because it sounded awful. He went to corporate and got the policy put in place. There are exceptions for established national acts when advanced, but otherwise, no.


Brad Weber said:
I definitely encountered that. Plenty of well founded 'probationary' BEing until venue/system techs got to know and trust you but the only times I was flat out not allowed to BE were venues or systems where the venue/provider techs seemed afraid they would look bad if they allowed anyone else to mix.
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Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Matt Lillie said:
A venue where I'm the house guy banned any BEs from touching the console after too many issues with bad BEs. Actually came down from the corporate level, and the reasoning was that it's detrimental to the "rep" of the venue. The final straw was a guy that came in and EQ'd everything (strips and house graphic!) before even listening and the venue's booking agent came in during the show and freaked because it sounded awful. He went to corporate and got the policy put in place. There are exceptions for established national acts when advanced, but otherwise, no.
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Matt. Since you have direct experience with this, does it not seem up to the acts to hire competent people instead of punishing everyone? My feeling is there are so many lower level acts on tour as promoters seem to doing more 4,5,6+ band shows and I don't believe that the industry has suddenly produced thousands of savvy BE's!! I always let anyone mix as long as they don't hurt anything. I can kind of understand the "rep" thing.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

You would think, right? Seems as though many band "engineers" are buddies with the drummer's cousin or something, couldn't mix paint, and will "work" for free beer and just to be in show business. I agree about the numbers, there doesn't seem to be enough qualified people or enough $$$ to hire competent people. Five years ago, you could do a weekend festival on an A stage and the headliners would have a BE. Now it seems every third tier act has their own BE and it's not unusual for every B stage act to have a BE. On the other hand, there are providers that think that once the act is on their job is done and it's time to grab a smoke or a cheeseburger and wait for the next changeover, never touch the console during the set. That would aggravate me as a band.

I also agree about letting whoever the BE is do their thing as long as they're not blowing stuff up. I was against the venue policy when it was being discussed, but the arguments from management persuaded me. They pay me good $$ to run the place, and part of that is for consistency. If there's a different guy every night and I'm just there to turn the rig on and then shut it down, they could get anybody. The venue wants it good every night, odds are against that if you let the drummer's cousin's buddy drive.


John Chiara said:
Matt. Since you have direct experience with this, does it not seem up to the acts to hire competent people instead of punishing everyone? My feeling is there are so many lower level acts on tour as promoters seem to doing more 4,5,6+ band shows and I don't believe that the industry has suddenly produced thousands of savvy BE's!! I always let anyone mix as long as they don't hurt anything. I can kind of understand the "rep" thing.
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Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

More guys got their gig because they had a bag packed and could be at the airport or meet the bus in 2 hours. The ones that kept their gigs were perceived as better than the typical in-house guy and were tolerable to live with on the bus. The latter is frequently more important than the former.

As the system guy I've mixed more in the last 4 years than I had in the 7 years before. Back then your observation about *today* was my own - even the support act playing 20 minutes had a BE. These days it's not unusual to mix one of the touring support acts as well as local support. I like it, it keeps me on my toes/ears.

Your observations about your role as "keeper of the sound", responsible to management and the public for a consistent sonic impression, are spot on.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

John Chiara said:
It also just happened last week at Toby Keith's in Syracuse, NY. Aside from being g a horrible sounding gymnasium like room,the system didn't cover a majority of the space, the sound booth was totally out of the main system coverage and the house guy Cnever walked around and vocals were painful and everything else was just stage volume.
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It's not quite that bad... Digico board, l-acoustics tops and subs, delays set for the bar area. Absolute volume restrictions are in place by the mall. The house guy may let you mix after he become comfortable with you.

Mixer IS in a stupid location and lack of front fills makes vox and stuff indistinct when you are right at the stage.

I'm pretty sure the house guy is operating on pretty stringent instructions and its not an ego thing.

The local casino just opened a country bar with much worse layout... the FOH is IN a horse trailer... and no remote mix capability.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

I got denied a few weeks ago at a festival (Phil @ City Entertainment Systems, providing for Das Awkscht Fescht) after following up to ensure a stage plot made it:

This is about our 16th year doing this event, it's pretty much a standard set up for everyone. We'll have 5 monitors at this event. We do not put kick drum into vocal wedges. And to avoid confusion or bad feelings, we absolutely will not have visiting sound men or monitor techs.
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The band did not go to bat for me to keep the peace... but they did pay me my normal rate to sit and eat cheesesteaks and funnel-cakes.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Dave Bednarski said:
I got denied a few weeks ago at a festival (Phil @ City Entertainment Systems, providing for Das Awkscht Fescht) after following up to ensure a stage plot made it:

This is about our 16th year doing this event, it's pretty much a standard set up for everyone. We'll have 5 monitors at this event. We do not put kick drum into vocal wedges. And to avoid confusion or bad feelings, we absolutely will not have visiting sound men or monitor techs.
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The band did not go to bat for me to keep the peace... but they did pay me my normal rate to sit and eat cheesesteaks and funnel-cakes.
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This is a different situation than the OP's, as this is not personal, but a blanket condition. From the provider's standpoint it makes a lot of sense, depending on the level of acts at the festival.

Speaking generally and not specifically about your situation - if you are a big enough act to draw a bunch of people to the event, you likely have enough pull with the promoter to be able to submit some kind of rider, possibly including specifying a BE. Everyone else is just filler.

I've played festivals before. Unless you're a headliner or junior headliner, your job is to get on the stage quickly, play your songs without complaining, and get off the stage on time.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Tim Perry said:
It's not quite that bad... Digico board, l-acoustics tops and subs, delays set for the bar area. Absolute volume restrictions are in place by the mall. The house guy may let you mix after he become comfortable with you.

Mixer IS in a stupid location and lack of front fills makes vox and stuff indistinct when you are right at the stage.

I'm pretty sure the house guy is operating on pretty stringent instructions and its not an ego thing.

The local casino just opened a country bar with much worse layout... the FOH is IN a horse trailer... and no remote mix capability.
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I have to amend this: The horse trailer is beside the stage and the poor house guy has to keep running out all night to check the mix. VRX array, 3 per side with 2 X VRX subs per side. Sounds pretty good, and the baby back ribs are excellent.
 

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