Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

[John Chiara]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

First, I am a strong believer that the chest pounding kick spoken of, and the desire to produce that, is one of the most common reasons for tiring, too loud sounding mixes. When I ran my club I tried to explain to some BE's that the heavy 60-80hz pummel they were chasing after was gonna bum everyone out after about 10 minutes. Especially my staff!!
Second, a 5 string or 4 string bass in any show I mix gets high passed. Full range bass through a system that does 30hz sounds unnatural and droning. No bass rig will do full range full level at those frequencies so I never ask the FOH to do it.
Bass tone is harmonics. That said having the low frequency extension for kick and other sources opens doors otherwise closed.

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

How much compromise in reproduction is too much? If it's the difference between ideal bass vs "show doesn't happen", then 50Hz at minimal SPL is fine. I say it's up to us to raise the bar. Rather than "the way it's always been" vs "unnecessary extra features", it should be "recommended/normal" vs "compromised".

Small church last week, 2x EAW dual 15" subs, forget the model, end of their useful lifespans. This was their old "normal". I took a single, underpowered DBH-218, and watched collective jaws bounce off the floor. Their is their new normal. Lower cost and higher performance than what they were considering. Raising the bar, while often lowering cost.

What tops were you using with those Danley subs?
The SB250's I've installed in church applications were crossed over to a 10" horn-mid fairly high so I'm guessing you had new top cabs as well?

Funny, that much bass in the small churches I grew up in would have been considered "of the devil"~~:smile: -more because the decorating ladies didn't like big ugly speakers! (BTW, where did you end up hiding those big danleys?)

I'm guessing that churches have definitely come a long-way with musical needs!
I installed a catholic church once and they went 2 years without even noticing somebody knocked the iec power cord out of the LF box amp (2x15" JBL install boxes flown) They were running with just the 2" drivers on large horns crossed at 500Hz and never thought anything was wrong. (I guess their services were primarily speech and the music was from a small pipe organ that only had an 8' rank for the lows!)

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

Once you have heard subs that ACTUALLY go low (without having to boost the low end) it is REAL hard to listen to "normal" subs. The lower freq response gives a whole new depth and fullness to the sound.

I find that people who make the argument that you don't need to go below 40Hz have never actually used subs that go below 40Hz or heck that are even flat to 40Hz.

So they don't know what they are missing. McDonalds is just fine-until you eat a real hamburger-THEN you know the difference.

I actually like McD's but the nearest one is almost 80mi away and I haven't had any for over a year

There are LOTS of normal music styles that require the extra depth. As soon as the 5 string bass shows up on stage- you BETTER have a sub that goes a lot lower-or you are not doing his music justice.

People put those lower freq in the music because they want the listener to HEAR it. If they didn't want you to hear it-then why put it in?

Guess I've never been blessed to have a band that has anything that low. -And I am used to making mixes fairly LF-heavy and use a dbx120 regularly as an effect so I know and love 25-30Hz bass. I just don't feel like i need it always.
I've also done 5-string bass for years through just run-of-the-mill EV 18" subs which probably faded fast starting at 45Hz (Like the MTL-4). Artist was happy, audience is happy and so I really guess we don't feel like we are missing anything too awfully important. (I'm doing much better than the average bass amp though)

My customers just don't want to pay for deeper bass then they are already getting, nor can my back handle moving it around.

If there was a modular solution that I could pile in a whole bunch of easily carried little boxes that worked together as one big one and provided me with that "30Hz joy" then I would probably make more use of it.

That little danley dual-8 would be a good size for me for such a module, I can carry little things all day long, but the days of dual-18's or Large hornsubs are over for me.
The TH-Mini is also a good size, but it only does mid 40's so I'm no better off than with my Eminence boxes (probably wouldn't need as many of them though

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Install hasn't happened yet, just demo. Old system - SPL TrikTraps over EAWs (SB250?)
Demo - RCF HDL20a's over DBH.

Sub to be flown, usually solves where to hide it. Plus doesn't flatten the first couple rows - however subs are picky where/how they are arrayed.

People that like subs, like myself, are typically going for a "big, powerful" sound. Excess SPL is a band-aid until extension - both low and high - is available. Then there is that pesky phase stuff....

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

My customers just don't want to pay for deeper bass then they are already getting, nor can my back handle moving it around.

If there was a modular solution that I could pile in a whole bunch of easily carried little boxes that worked together as one big one and provided me with that "30Hz joy" then I would probably make more use of it.

Easy to get lots of low bass in small enclosures using small high Xmax drivers either sealed or with low tunings.

http://soundforums.net/diy-audio/134-free-sub-plan-dual-lab12-front-loaded-welter-systems.html

There are a lot of drivers that have even more displacement per $ than the Lab 12s now.

Although the above approach can go low in a small box (which could be cut in half), I prefer the Keystone, twice the size for transport, and for the much higher SPL upper output (with as much LF output) it provides.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

Easy to get lots of low bass in small enclosures using small high Xmax drivers either sealed or with low tunings.

Been thinking about that quite often, there seems to be a lot of fairly useful 8", 10" and 12" drivers for handling that bottom octave. I guess the problem isn't getting down, but getting loud enough to be useful in anything but the smallest venues. If one needs 100KW to get to thunderous levels, and 200 drivers to handle the power, then obviously that is not an option, and even handling 10KW would require a fair amount of drivers, but certainly well within the realm of reasonable and practical. So what would one do, stack up with boxes of 12s and toss the 18s, or let the 18s do what they do best and just let the 12s handle the bottom?

BTW, haven't done the conversion yet, I'll probably go the easy way with a single rear chamber and a single rectangular close to square port, and see how that works out.

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

The Lab212 seems to dig a little deeper than the SRX718/728 I've compared them too, and sounds very good doing it. Art's measurements seems to back up my subjective opinions. Probably would take a good number of units to fill even a medium sized venue however, I'm looking forward to having a block of 4 by the end of the summer.

Build is straightforward, cost per box is quite respectable as well.

 

[Rob Spence]

The Lab212 seems to dig a little deeper than the SRX718/728 I've compared them too, and sounds very good doing it. Art's measurements seems to back up my subjective opinions. Probably would take a good number of units to fill even a medium sized venue however, I'm looking forward to having a block of 4 by the end of the summer.

Build is straightforward, cost per box is quite respectable as well.

How much do you think they cost to build (assuming free labor). I am thinking of building some. The size is nice for building cardioid stacks and still fit them in the trailer.


Sent from my iPad HD

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

Easy to get lots of low bass in small enclosures using small high Xmax drivers either sealed or with low tunings.

http://soundforums.net/diy-audio/134-free-sub-plan-dual-lab12-front-loaded-welter-systems.html

There are a lot of drivers that have even more displacement per $ than the Lab 12s now.

Although the above approach can go low in a small box (which could be cut in half), I prefer the Keystone, twice the size for transport, and for the much higher SPL upper output (with as much LF output) it provides.

Noted.

Thanks much, starting to draw up cut-sheets right now.

I do have 4 Lab-12's in my leftover inventory, However I don't think I have big enough amps. (QSC PL236 is currently my largest ones. Don't laugh but been using them for tops and ancient crown PSA-2's monobridged for sub duty. (Remember my current Omega-Pro boxes bottom-out with 400W) -they do fail the "easy-to-carry" part though.

Have some older Digam 5000's pulled from an install I would like to try, but have to build new racks as they are deeper than everything I have.

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

How much do you think they cost to build (assuming free labor). I am thinking of building some. The size is nice for building cardioid stacks and still fit them in the trailer.


Sent from my iPad HD

I reckon they cost about $400-500 per cab to build, depending on how much investment you put into finishing them - I bought some rust paint on sale and just did multiple coats with a rough sanding between each coat. My biggest expense building the first cabinet was wood, all the local lumber yards stock 5-ply cabinet grade junk that looked like it would split if you looked at it the wrong way, so I had to improvise. The local HD sells 2x4 sheets of 13-ply birch, quality was good enough, the price was $37 per sheet putting my lumber expense at $150 for that cab.

Drivers and hardware were relatively inexpensive as I was able to get most of it at dealer cost. Also, I'm in Canada so pricing might be different in your region.

Edit: For the three I'm gearing up to build I special ordered some good quality 5x5 sheets of BB, now I'm stuck with a stack of speakers waiting for the order to come in

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

Been thinking about that quite often, there seems to be a lot of fairly useful 8", 10" and 12" drivers for handling that bottom octave. I guess the problem isn't getting down, but getting loud enough to be useful in anything but the smallest venues. If one needs 100KW to get to thunderous levels, and 200 drivers to handle the power, then obviously that is not an option, and even handling 10KW would require a fair amount of drivers, but certainly well within the realm of reasonable and practical. So what would one do, stack up with boxes of 12s and toss the 18s, or let the 18s do what they do best and just let the 12s handle the bottom?

One would do what one would do ;^).
Using the sims to compare your possible box with four 18" to a pair of the WS 2x12", roughly the same size, both driven with 1600 watts the 4x12" would do 131 dB at 40 Hz, the 4x18" only 121 dB.
The 4x12" are twice as loud down low.
At 100 Hz, the reverse is true, the 4x12" can do 130 dB, the 4x18" 139 dB. About twice as loud.

Now, to compare some real cabinets, a pair of the WS 2x12" will put out a bit more bottom and a bit less top than the larger dual 18" JBL SRX 728. The chart below shows the WS Lab 2x12", a JBL SRX 728, and the WS Keystone, all measured with the same drive level and 25 &125BW filters.
On actual side by side stages I measured four of the WS 2x12" having more 40 Hz output than eight Meyers dual 18" 650P.

The Keystone tapped horn linked in reply #7 is double the size of the WS 2x12" (but weighs less) and has similar sensitivity to the dual 18" JBL SRX 728, slightly less bottom and slightly more top.
The Keystone has way more upper output than the WS 2x12".
Due to the Keystone's BC-18SW115-4 having more excursion and less power compression, it will kick the JBL SRX 718 or a pair of the WS 2x12" ass all night long.

The neo BC-18SW115-4 has become very expensive, I'd now use the B&C18TBW100 driver which has similar specifications, though it is 36.6 pounds compared to the neo at 26.5 pounds. It has slightly less Xmax, 12 mm compared to 14, and can handle slightly less power.
The actual output difference using the 18TBW100 is not much, it sims at about 1.5 dB less.

By the way, for those in the USA still interested in the WS 2x12", I have a pair for sale.
I have taken one speaker out of each (for use in other cabinets) and put a cover plate on, the output now is within a dB of the dual at 40 Hz, but droops down above.

I could sell them " as is" or without the Lab 12 cones. As is would not have input jacks, as they presently have EP-6 and most people use Speakon, about a $3 inlet IIRC. The EP-6 are getting hard to get and are like $25...
The TC Epic 12" appears to be an upgrade from the Lab 12 for not a whole lot more money. Also, since the cover plate option is viable, you could start with a pair of cones, and later add another pair.

I'd sell the pair of cabinets each loaded with one Lab 12 for $700 plus shipping from 87505, unloaded for $400. Shipping weight is around 80 lb with one driver, about 55 without.

Art

 

[Rob Spence]

So, what, besides a couple of pound lighter makes the TC Epic 12 an upgrade to the Lab 12?

I have good skills in woodworking and in configuring & running sound systems but nothing really in speaker cabinet design.


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[Phil Graham]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

So, what, besides a couple of pound lighter makes the TC Epic 12 an upgrade to the Lab 12?

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A quick perusal shows bigger and stiffer spider, better lead management, longer Xmax, shorting ring, rubber surround, and stainless vc former. Thilo, TC's principal, knows how to design very good woofers in my experience.

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

BTW, haven't done the conversion yet, I'll probably go the easy way with a single rear chamber and a single rectangular close to square port, and see how that works out.

Per,

Did you ever try out a quad cabinet?

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

Per,

Did you ever try out a quad cabinet?

Sorry, I have been lazy. Pulled open one cabinet and sort of started on the project, but it has been sitting there waiting for a while now because I have to prioritize our studio that needs to be ready in about four weeks.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

Hmmmm..., opened up the other cabinets, and they don't have the same elements. The first cabinet, and the one that probably have been bottoming out all the time contained a pair of Eminence drivers, but the rest of them all had Dragon 18500 elements, Chinese stuff. I know these elements as Billebro elements from earlier, and have two cabinets that unsurprisingly have played well with the four "Eminence" cabinets. Now, these Dragons are awfully stiff, and I have never been able to bottom them out with 2kW at 30 Hz. Although I am at a rethink at the moment, I'll probably finish one box, tuning it slightly higher than originally intended and then just hit it with everything I've got.

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

Although I am at a rethink at the moment, I'll probably finish one box, tuning it slightly higher than originally intended and then just hit it with everything I've got.

Per,

Four months and you got around to opening the cabinets.
I'll check back to see the progress next year ;^).

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

Per,

Four months and you got around to opening the cabinets.
I'll check back to see the progress next year ;^).

What can I say? I'm a thinker and a contemplator, not a doer :blush:

In my defence, I did open one of the boxes months ago and have that box almost ready, opening the second box was in order to take out the elements to transfer to the nearly finished box.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Per,

Four months and you got around to opening the cabinets.
I'll check back to see the progress next year ;^).

He works about as fast as I do

Sent from my SCH-I545 4

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Subs, what to do if you lack excursion?

So...., I'm thinking, what if I just open up the rear instead of venting? Going for a somewhat diffuse passive cardio dipole?



Oh yeah, forgot to mention that trying different ways of modelling the initial design (the units I'm using have a Qts of .38), I ended up concluding that the only way to keep some low response with the volume at hand was to lay the cabinet down to have long enough ports.