The SM58...

Re: The SM58...

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS said:
If you ND767 is such a great mic then why have I never seen them on a tech rider?
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This is actually a pretty easy question to answer. If somebody is mic savvy enough to ask for more than a SM58 they are going to ask for an EV967, Senn 935, etc. or a particular wireless. Also the really slick singers are carrying their own.

For the record the EV757 is a great mic for what it is. Sounds clearer and has better feedback rejection than a SM58 for a few dollars more or even the same price sometimes, just like most of the other mics in that class and price range.
 
Last year I did over 175 shows in over 100 different rooms/ locations on nearly as many systems.

If I get to the point where all I have to worry about is the fact that the singer is on a 58, I am going to ignore and relax and enjoy the rest of the show.

And even if I did substitute something tonally better, odds are I am the only one going to notice.
 
Re: The SM58...

@RYAN,
If you ND767 is such a great mic then why have I never seen them on a tech rider?
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I never said they were popular. I said they are very good.... better than an SM58. Here we are with yet another poor argument..... ie if you don't see them requested, then they aren't any good .... which is just wrong.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever A/B'd an ND767 against an SM58? I am guessing not.

If you are having feedback problems with a 58 then how about reaching for the eq and pulling out the problem frequency? Saying that a microphone is more prone to feedback then others it complete bullshit!
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If you don't think that the microphone has anything to do with feedback, then I doubt you and I have very much common ground to discuss. This is simply a lack of knowledge on your part and I would suggest you do, at a minimum some research, and possibly even some kind of testing yourself before you say such foolish things.

While your EV Mics may be less prone to feedback in a particular circumstance, they won't be in all situations.
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I would love to hear of a situation where 4 SM58's would not feedback before 4 ND767a's. If you have a test setup, I would be happy to do the testing myself.

I have never had a single instance that even a single SM58 on the stage did not increase the feedback potential. I have had this happen on many occasions since I also have a few people that I have worked with that incorrectly thought of the SM58 as the "holy grail" of live performance microphones and insisted on using one ..... until I showed them the difference.

With regards to what sounds better in its class.... What class are you talking about? "Handheld vocal Mics"?
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The usage and price class. The usage being a microphone designed for live sound (vs recording for instance), and the price being ~$100-$200.

Oh, and I can guarantee you that I will not let you use my kms105 for your band so YOU get the sm58s, therefore they are the best sounding mic that you'll get on my stage unless you bring a BE and an ME who is used to using your Mics, and that is only if you are the headliner that actually gets a sound check. While your at it, bring your own consoles and copper because you aren't messing with my eq curves that are perfectly rung out for my sm58s and my monitors with my monitor guy. I don't have time to reset my eqs for all the other bands that don't get a sound check.
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Well there you have it. Where do I begin?

Lets start with the "class" of microphone here. The KSM105 is ~ $700.00 (clearly out of range of what we are talking about here), but I thank you for providing such a great example of what I am not talking about.

Next, I am not trying to tell you how to run your rig. I could care less if you go about being a crotchety, irritable and intractable person in your dealings with bands and prohibit them from using their own microphones. In fact, I have clearly stated many times that I am not talking about sound providers for many reasons. Perhaps you didn't read the thread?

If the SM58 works for you, great! I am not going to show up in the night and steal your precious SM58's while you sleep and replace them with a better microphone.

So I guess now I have another reason that has been quoted in this thread for why someone would buy an SM58 instead of another better microphone:
...because you aren't messing with my eq curves that are perfectly rung out for my sm58's ....
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finally ...
Get it?!
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Yes, I get it. :roll:

You have convinced me of the error of my ways. I am astonished that I didn't realize all along how great a microphone the SM58 really is. I will immediately be selling off all of my ND767's and replacing them with SM58's thanks to your words of wisdom.

Are you serious?
 
Re: The SM58...

Eric Cagle said:
This is actually a pretty easy question to answer. If somebody is mic savvy enough to ask for more than a SM58 they are going to ask for an EV967, Senn 935, etc. or a particular wireless. Also the really slick singers are carrying their own.

For the record the EV757 is a great mic for what it is. Sounds clearer and has better feedback rejection than a SM58 for a few dollars more or even the same price sometimes, just like most of the other mics in that class and price range.
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I have gotten the 767 for as low as $80.00 new. It lists for $130.00, but even at $30.00 more than the SM58 I think it is well worth the money. The EV967 and Senn e935 are also great microphones (also better than the SM58) and in that same price catagory. I don't think the EV967 was around when I first started gigging (over 10 years ago) and I haven't had the opportunity to A/B against what I have, but the Sennheiser e935, e845 and even the e835 are very good microphones as well (all better than the SM58 to my ear).

I don't do sound for others .... with the few exceptions of a friend in need here and there, but certainly not my main gig. I play in a band and want the sound to be as good as possible with as little chance of feedback as I can get. We use all IEM's so it is a rare occasion when we ever hear feedback under any conditions.
 
Re: The SM58...

Scott Bolt said:
I have gotten the 767 for as low as $80.00 new. It lists for $130.00, but even at $30.00 more than the SM58 I think it is well worth the money. The EV967 and Senn e935 are also great microphones (also better than the SM58) and in that same price catagory. I don't think the EV967 was around when I first started gigging (over 10 years ago) and I haven't had the opportunity to A/B against what I have, but the Sennheiser e935, e845 and even the e835 are very good microphones as well (all better than the SM58 to my ear).
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The EV967 is a hypercardiod 767 on steriods. It is not for everyone because the pattern is so tight. It is more detailed as long as you are in the pattern. It is one of my favorite PA mics if the singer knows how to use it. I can and have happily mixed with most any of the mics mentioned in this thread including the EV767. Because I did alot of live recording I have also listened to most of them in a studio environment through very revealing monitors. Other than some of the Heil offerings none of the dynamic PA mics (The KSM105 is a condensor) are even close to what I use in the studio if you really want the "best" as far as clarity and detail, but most of those really would not work that well in a live situation. As Jay mentioned I don't think anyone in the audience would ever notice the difference.

Would I rather mix on a ND767 than a SM58? Of course! I own SM58's for business reasons and the better mics I own (except for some e835's I have had for years) are much much better than either the SM58 or EV757. By the way I prefer the SM58 over the e835 most of the time.
 
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Re: The SM58...

Kemper Watson said:
Hey Scott, we all know there are better mics than a 58. But for those of us that have mastered them, and use them all the time, well, you are not going to change the way we operate.
You mentioned a MixWix, what else does your PA consist of? Let's talk about that for a while.
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Fair enough. I never imagined I would change anyone's mind about how to operate, and in fact believe that for many who provide live sound for a living, the SM58 is essential.

My current PA consists of the following:

A&H MixWiz 16 channel analog mixer
Furman power conditioner
Furman wired IEM system with 4 remote IEM mixers mounted to mic stands
ART HQ15 stereo eq
Presonus ACP88 8 channel compressor/gate
TC Electronics M-OneXL reverb/delay
4 EV ND767a microphones for vocals
2 Sennheiser e609 microphones for guitars
2 Yamaha DSR112 powered tops
2 JBL PRX618S-XLF powered subs

The mix wiz 6 auxes are used as follows:

1-4 direct into Furman IEM.
AUX 1 mix is the lead guitar player and his vocal
AUX2 mix is my rhythm guitar and my vocal (lead)
AUX3 mix is the bass and his vocal
AUX4 mix is the drummer (no vocal)
AUX5 is used for the on-board efx
AUX6 is the send to the M-OneXL which returns to ST2

I am in the process of convincing myself to purchase one of the new X32 products (the producer looks pretty interesting).

@ Eric,
The EV967 is a hypercardiod 757 on steriods. It is not for everyone because the pattern is so tight. It is more detailed as long as you are in the pattern. It is one of my favorite PA mics if the singer knows how to use it.
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I agree. I have had to coach guest singers to get up on the mic because of this. I believe that this is simply good live mic usage, but as you know, not everyone knows how to handle a live mic well.

There are probably better microphones for singers who have poor mic skills than the 767a.

As for the audience, I think they either think "Hey the band sounds great". They have no idea why it sounds good or bad.
 
Re: The SM58...

Caleb Dick said:
Show me someone that can make an SM58 sound like a 'real' mic (AE5400, E965, KMS105, etc) and I'll happily concede that my mixing/EQ skills are severely lacking.
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Merle Haggard, for one. The performance of the mic is dependent upon the material with which it is presented.

If your mixing/EQ skills are anywhere near as developed as your equipment biases, you're golden.
 
Re: The SM58...

Scott Bolt said:
@RYAN,

Just out of curiosity, have you ever A/B'd an ND767 against an SM58? I am guessing not.
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well, I guess that's my cue.

yes. Yes I have. In fact, the only microphones I have owned for any length of time are SM58's and an ND757b that I bought about 25 years ago. For those who don't know, the 757 is the predecessor to the 767 and is essentially identical except it had a bass roll off switch. Anyway, I bought the EV when I was a young singer because it 'sounded better' than the 58s I had, and I used it pretty much religiously for the next several years.

but a funny thing happened as time went on. First I kept losing the clip you had to use for the EV since it wouldn't fit into a standard mic clip, so I would have to drag out the 58 for the night until I got around to buying another one. Then I started playing a lot of festivals and it was just easier to use the 58s that were there, so the EV got used even less. Finally, it languished amongst my old sound stuff in storage for the better part of a couple of decades while I went and used a LOT of the soind company's Shure mics to mix a lot of very well known musical acts.

A few years ago I got back into playing and dug out the old EV. It still worked fine, but now the rubber sleeve on the body wouldn't stay on it, so again I needed a special clip. Also, I now noticed that the tight supercardiod pattern that helped with feedback also made the very good mic technique I've developed over time almost useless. If I worked the mic to get proper dynamics, my vocal tone was all over the place since the proximity effect was so pronounced. The mic also had a degree of sibilance i now find annoying. So out came my even older venerable 58, which I was able to use to very good effect at the coffee house gigs I was playing.

nowadays I play and sing at my day job at a church through a Beta87C on a Shure RF rig using IEMs. I'm now so accustomed to that element that I'd probably buy a wired one if I went back to solo gigs. For sure I'd never go back to using the EV.

I'm sure your EVs suit you well, and that's fine. But if I had to choose between an SM58 and a 767 as a singer, I'd choose the 58. If I had to choose as a sound engineer, I'd STILL choose the 58. And yes, I would be able to make it sound great. I did it for years.
 
Well I have learned two important things in this thread:

1. Scott applies the same one size fits all you must be crazy not to agree logic to microphones that have characterized his posts about powered speakers.

2. Caleb isn't happy unless he is using $600 mics through $20000 mixers and $4000 speakers.

And since this is my birthday week and I am old enough that there aren't many things left that I can be considered the "youngest", I must be working at becoming the youngest old fart out there.
 
Scott Bolt said:
I will concede that the SM58 is a very durable microphone; however, we are again going down a path of argument with huge holes in it.

The fact that an SM58 is durable does not mean that an ND767a or Sennheiser e845/e945 are NOT durable.

I have had my ND767's for over a decade. I have not had a single failure despite them being dropped, plopped, spilled on, and generally mistreated.... and they are a much better microphone than the SM58.

It is shocking to me that there are so many here that defend the SM58 and even agree that it doesn't sound as good as other microphones in its price class.



Hey Eric,

I agree that the SM58 is a much better microphone than ANY $30.00 POS I have ever seen. It isn't a bad microphone, it just isn't the best.

I suspect that had you replaced the crap $30.00 microphones with EV ND767's they would have been even more floored at the difference.

This is not the only forum where I have seen this exact subject come up. It amazes me that there is such a rabid following for the SM58 without any evidence that it is a better microphone than the others in its class. It is like a cult or something ;)

So let me list out the reasons given in this thread that you should use an SM58:
  1. It is "good enough" even if there are better sounding microphones (I would rather have the best myself).
  2. Feedback rejection isn't the only reason to pick a microphone so it is alright that the SM58 feeds back before other microphones would (It is an important issue to me though)
  3. Other people will recognize it and accept it (I acknowledge that this is important for sound providers, but not bands).
  4. It has a track record of being durable (so do other microphones).


I still would like to hear from someone in this thread that is willing to actually state that the SM58 is a better sounding microphone than others in its class and that it has better feedback rejection.

Any takers?
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I can't be a taker because I haven't spent any time shooting them out. I get excellent sound out of the 58's. I rarely have feedback issues or trouble getting the gain or tone I need, so why mess with it?
I view it like my Ford F-150, the Silverado or Tundra might be a better truck, or do some things better, be more comfortable, etc. BUT, my truck works great for my purposes, gets the job don't, and is paid for (like a 58 collection).
The F150 also has great gain before feedback and can "crush" any of those mics in a shoot out.
 
I will add that I just mixed a great (and loud) band with 4 very different vocalists. All on 58's with a High Pass at 180 and flat the rest of the way. Sounded great and 0 feedback issues.
 
Re: The SM58...

Scott Bolt said:
ART HQ15 stereo eq
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I think more than anything this right here is why you are having feedback issues. Feedback is a tuning, operator, and placement issue rather than a microphone issue. I could take a $15 eBay "Shuheiakger em5835" and, with proper placement and some real processing between the board and the speakers, it would take a lot of effort to get it to feed back. Would the mic still sound like total shit? You bet, but it wouldn't feedback.

If you wanna be picky about microphones please do so (I'll freely admit that I'm the picky-ist person I know when it comes to what mic to use) but make your reasons about other aspects that are actually related to the microphone itself. You'll help build both your own reputation and the reputation of the microphones that you want others to try out.
 
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