The top ten

Silas Pradetto

Silas Pradetto

Graduate Student
Jan 11, 2011
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Land of Steady Habits
www.concertsunlimited.com
I'm wondering, to possibly assist me in selecting a system to purchase, if it would be possible to compile a list of the top ten 'most desirable' speaker brands for the touring/rider friendly market. I'd like to rank them in order of popularity or desirability, or even ROI.

I have some ideas but couldn't put them in any particular order:

  • D&B
  • L'Acoustics
  • JBL
  • EAW
  • Turbosound
  • Martin Audio
  • Meyer
  • Clair
  • Nexo

Another question is, if you happen to own a system that doesn't ultimately end up on the top 10 list, what are your reasons for owning it? Does it have the ROI you expected? Or did you not buy the rig for ROI?

If this is an exercise in futility, feel free to ignore it or delete it.
 
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Re: The top ten

I would suggest that the top 10 idea is really dependent on your market - it can vary significantly by region, genre, style, whether it's for music, corporate, theater, etc, etc, etc.

For instance, while D&B might be popular in some circles, in many markets Meyer and JBL are more prevalent.

Shane mentioned Meyer, I would also add Clair to the list, though proprietary. And Nexo.


Are you thinking about going big Silas? If so, be careful, "if you build it they will come" is a nice idea from a movie that doesn't always ring true in the real world.
 
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Re: The top ten

Silas Pradetto said:
I'm wondering, to possibly assist me in selecting a system to purchase, if it would be possible to compile a list of the top ten 'most desirable' speaker brands for the touring/rider friendly market. I'd like to rank them in order of popularity or desirability, or even ROI.

I have some ideas but couldn't put them in any particular order:

  • D&B
  • L'Acoustics
  • JBL
  • EAW
  • Turbosound
  • Martin Audio

Another question is, if you happen to own a system that doesn't ultimately end up on the top 10 list, what are your reasons for owning it? Does it have the ROI you expected? Or did you not buy the rig for ROI?

If this is an exercise in futility, feel free to ignore it or delete it.
Click to expand...

What can you cross rent around CT? I know there's some JBL and EAW houses.
 
Re: The top ten

Silas-

Work as an IATSE stage hand. ;)

What I see working arena shows in the past 12 months are Clair I5/I3, JBL VerTec, Meyer Milo, l'Acoustics vDosc (only one K rig so far), Martin MLA (only one so far), d&b (only 2 so far), EV X-Array (one rig), and one Turbo line array (don't remember which one, I was electrician on that gig) and one EV line array (the big one). I think it's important to remember that on the arena circuit we only see "A" level national or international acts. On the "soft seat" tours there is more variety and more ground stacking, so in addition to the above I've seen some EV QRX, JBL SRX, d&b, an old Turbo Flash/Flood rig (sounded pretty good, too), and various combinations of EAW KFxxx.

On budget tours we see some S-4,; Brett Michael was carrying Showco Prism for side fills.

What I find interesting is that EAW seems largely out of the touring market, Martin has yet to gain significant market share with the MLA, and despite having good products we don't see much Turbo or d&b. That makes me think the selection of a touring PA company is much more about service and support than what inventory the company has. In my research before we bought VerTec I spoke with a number of company owners, and one of them told me "if the tour is long enough I'll buy whatever the BE wants, even if it's a product we'd probably not have purchased otherwise."

Hope this helps.
 
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Re: The top ten

Jeff Babcock said:
I would suggest that the top 10 idea is really dependent on your market - it can vary significantly by region, genre, style, whether it's for music, corporate, theater, etc, etc, etc.

For instance, while D&B might be popular in some circles, in many markets Meyer and JBL are more prevalent.

Shane mentioned Meyer, I would also add Clair to the list, though proprietary. And Nexo.


Are you thinking about going big Silas? If so, be careful, "if you build it they will come" is a nice idea from a movie that doesn't always ring true in the real world.
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Not intending on going (too) big. Most, if not all, of these manufacturers have a mid-sized or small format offering. I'd be looking at something in the range of KF730 or perhaps VT4886 to cover shows of 2-3000 people outside.

I tried the 'let's buy a line array because it's cool' thing once, and it didn't work out. This time around it's something I actually need to buy since I'm renting rigs constantly, and want to make sure I make the right decision. ROI matters this time.
 
Re: The top ten

Depends on the style of music ...And the person mixing. ...And the market. ...And the rooms you want to cover. ...and so many variables!


The best IMO "all around, good sounding, easily cross-renteable, well accepted, good ROI, loud" box would be JBL VT4888DP. It does any style of music, everyone knows it, and as much as people like to hate on vertec, it can sound good and 90% of engineers won't throw a fit mixing on it.

But, for me personally, my list goes:

-Clair i3/i5 (BT218 subs)
-d&b J/Q (B2 or J-infra)
-JBL Vertec V4/V5 (VT4880A)
-EV XLC/X-line (x-sub)
-EAW KF760 (SB1000z)
-L-Acoustic v-dosc (SB218- even though they suck)
-Nexo Geo-T (CD18)


And that's my "preferred" list. Though, anything after the top 3 is just kinda "eh" for me. But, something also to consider, is that those are my picks for rock and roll. If I was mixing country, or R&B, v-dosc would probably be my first pick. But, that's a heavy ass box!


Evan
 
Re: The top ten

For me it's not a straight first second third. It would be tiered. Different systems have different dispersions, weights, etc. that make them more or less desirable depending on the act and the venue.

First tier:

L'acoustics Kara
D&B V (must admit that I haven't used it but having used Q and J, feel comfortable putting it in the top tier)

Second tier:

Meyer Mica / M'elodie
L'acoustics DV-DOSC
D&B Q1

Third tier:

Nexo Geo S12
JBL Vertec 4888 on V4 or V5

After that are some things I have not had great results with:

Eaw
EV
Martin (I have not used the MLA)

I mixed one show, at Glastonbury, on the Turbosound Flex Array and it was quite good.
I have heard great things about the Outline systems, but have not mixed on one.
One of the best sounding shows I have ever mixed was on a Duran Audio Target system provided by Jacobs Audio in Colorado.

To answer the second part of your question, I think that price, availability, and cross rental options would be as much a part of what dictates system choice as sound quality.

Where you are, there are two sound companies with L'acoustics, and several with Vertec. If you were to have 18 DV-DOSC, and get a gig that required 24, it would be easy to rent more. You may like to rent from your friends, but that may not bring you the best ROI.

Then there is cost of the purchase. L'acoustics has a very high entry price. If you want the K series boxes, they require you (from what I have been told) to purchase a fairly large chunk of their speakers and amplifiers. They will no longer sell you their speakers without their amps. Meyer have a premium price tag, are heavier than other speakers, and you will need a Galileo processor. D&B require you to purchase their amps, but have a low weight so you have more flying options. They have a narrower dispersion than others, so you need out fills more often.

If you were in a rural area that did not have many sound companies, you could get by with any system on the list. Artists would have to be understanding. So if you can get Vertec for 30% less than Meyer, but still get all of the gigs, that may be a better way to go.

Then there is life span. I think that to buy something like Vertec, that has just been replaced by the VTX as the flagship JBL line array might prove foolish, especially in New England, where there are so many sound companies. Of course if you could buy used, that may make more sense.

Tough decision.
 
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Re: The top ten

Silas said:
Prime contenders around here are VT4888 and KF730...
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Hi Silas:

Nothing you don't know here, but the VT4888 is really a medium/large output box and the KF730 is more a small/medium box. The cost of the JBL box will be a bit more, but the amplification of the JBL boxes will be quite a bit more. They are also a bit heavier, but very reasonably so. The 90˚ JBL pattern vs. 110˚ spec (100˚ actual IMO) EAW pattern is a cost consideration as well - you'll need front fills for most 90˚ hangs and rarely with the EAW's IMO. I don't know what the JBL's are capable of sonically, but the EAW's can be stunning if massaged a bit.

It really depends on what size shows you do on average. In my case, the 77 lb KF730 is the bar gig to 10,000 seat wonder of the world. Amazing design. Horizontal coverage consistency (along with the KF740) is unmatched as far as I know (for a line array), which is very nice:

KF730_Horizontal.png
You're invited to come down for a day or two if you'd like to put some time in with my KF730's. :)
 
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Re: The top ten

Langston Holland said:
Hi Silas:

Nothing you don't know here, but the VT4888 is really a medium/large output box and the KF730 is more a small/medium box. The cost of the JBL box will be a bit more, but the amplification of the JBL boxes will be quite a bit more. They are also a bit heavier, but very reasonably so. They 90˚ JBL pattern vs. 110˚ spec (100˚ actual IMO) EAW pattern is a cost consideration as well - you'll need front fills for most 90˚ hangs and rarely with the EAW's IMO. I don't know what the JBL's are capable of sonically, but the EAW's can be stunning if massaged a bit.

It really depends on what size shows you do on average. In my case, the 77 lb KF730 is the bar gig to 10,000 seat wonder of the world. Amazing design. Horizontal coverage consistency (along with the KF740) is unmatched as far as I know, which is very nice:

View attachment 3905
You're invited to come down for a day or two if you'd like to put some time in with my KF730's. :)
Click to expand...

Hi Langston,

Thank you very much for the post and the offer. I do like the form factor of the 730 much, much better than the 88. And there's a company (actually both SPL and SCL sound) in MA that together have 20 boxes of 730s readily available. I've even received a very, very attractive offer on a used 730 rig from a fellow forum member.

I'm quite glad I started this thread!
 
Re: The top ten

Silas Pradetto said:
Hi Langston,

Thank you very much for the post and the offer. I do like the form factor of the 730 much, much better than the 88. And there's a company (actually both SPL and SCL sound) in MA that together have 20 boxes of 730s readily available. I've even received a very, very attractive offer on a used 730 rig from a fellow forum member.

I'm quite glad I started this thread!
Click to expand...

How much energy is there behind the KF730 due to the figure 8 pattern of those speakers on the sides? I can tell you from working a stage (at least 500feet) behind and to the stage right of a small hang of them that it is quite a bit.
 
Re: The top ten

Kevin Maxwell said:
How much energy is there behind the KF730 due to the figure 8 pattern of those speakers on the sides? I can tell you from working a stage (at least 500feet) behind and to the stage right of a small hang of them that it is quite a bit.
Click to expand...

A dipole arrangement will always have that issue. The way it's been explained to me, and it's logical, is that line arrays aren't supposed to be ground stacked! If the array is flown the rear lobe points off into the sky somewhere it won't matter (except possibly in some situations inside).
 
Re: The top ten

Silas Pradetto said:
A dipole arrangement will always have that issue. The way it's been explained to me, and it's logical, is that line arrays aren't supposed to be ground stacked! If the array is flown the rear lobe points off into the sky somewhere it won't matter (except possibly in some situations inside).
Click to expand...
This was outside and flown. It kind of defeats the directivity feature that I like line arrays for.
 
Re: The top ten

The dipole arrangement of the KF730 is what enables it to hold its horizontal pattern control at least a half decade lower in frequency than competing designs. A box/horn of this size is physically unable to provide directivity to wavelengths longer than about 1kHz, but the dipole woofer arrangement makes this possible - though as always - at a price. But the price paid is low compared to the benefit of LF pattern control.

The happy result is the quietest stage with the lowest potential for feedback at a given audience SPL of any line array box I've ever experienced whether it's ground stacked or flown. I sound like a pimp! :) The sad result is that it gives up a bit of potential forward output and it has a rear lobe from its figure-8 pattern that will be a bit louder than a standard design which directs much of this energy to its sides - such as where the musicians are.

A cardioid LF design such as on some of the NEXO boxes would be ideal, but there are downsides to this as well, such as cost, weight and size of both the boxes and amp racks. But if the physical and monetary budgets permit, this seems like the better solution.

Here is a killer bar rig that a singer with a Beta 87A or the like can stand near at full tilt levels:

KFSB_GndStk.jpg
This is a regular symphony gig I do using (6) overhead Neumann KM184's and an overhead Shure VP88. KF730's are run full range. No subs, but amazingly the VLF of the timpani carries nicely. I am about 15dB below the threshold of feedback at proper audience levels. I sit with them and use an iPad to control the M7 located stage left. The tent covering the M7 looks dumb - didn't notice the tilt until I saw the pictures. :)

Sinfonia.jpg
 
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Re: The top ten

Silas,

Do you need the line array mainly for outdoor or indoor events? Weight becomes a big factor for indoor events as most points are 1000lbs (atleast here). We have a Meyer M2D rig that sits most of the time because of trim height or weight. I would look at something that has a good power to weight ratio. What comes to mind: Meyer M'elodie, JBL 4887a's, D&B Q, EAW 730. Like many people have stated already, cross rentability also plays a big factor. One thing that hasen't been addressed is all the extra costs with a line aray, such as motors, spansets, shackles etc....
Do you have to meet any riders?
 
Re: The top ten

In MD/DC/NoVA, I put my hands on the JBL VT4888 more than anything else (not including installs). It’s pretty easily to think of 4-5 companies that have these.

In addition to the JBL's there is _#_ company using _____ boxes.
1, Martin (not the MLA)
1, d&b Q’s
1, RCF TT33A
2, EAW KF760
1, EAW KF730
 
Re: The top ten

Knowing D&B and L'acoustics well, I would take V over Kara any day. Kara is a good sounding box, but its 120 degree dispersion actually hinders its performance in a lot of real world situations. It has enough output to be a medium-throw solution, but the pattern control doesn't allow for it. In a typical theatre or music venue, you end up throwing stupid amounts of energy at the walls.

V is a whole lot better than Q. The rigging is infinitely better, it sounds exactly like J 200Hz and up, and since its a passive design, its very amp efficient. Having an 80 degree and a 120 degree box makes it much more useful in a variety of situations.

D&B subs are also a whole lot better than L'acoustics. In fact, i think all L'acoustics systems are let down a bit by the sub components...
 
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