Troll thread

Re: Troll thread

Jeff Williams said:
It's an amazing thread, isn't it? :-)

A couple of days ago I typed out what I wanted to say, then promptly deleted it. It falls on deaf ears.
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And now we've got the "good troll/bad troll" thing going, although their unsupported claims seem to be getting closer and closer, "bad troll" letting fly and "good troll" being as judicious and tactful as possible. I put the labels in quotes specifically to signify that I mean them to describe their roles, not who they are. It's not personal.

Still, gotta love the assertion that the cabinets in question somehow magically sound superior when the phase trace looks like "a tornado". It's hard to believe that the ear would not hear what the graph shows.
 
Re: Troll thread

Dick Rees said:
And now we've got the "good troll/bad troll" thing going, although their unsupported claims seem to be getting closer and closer, "bad troll" letting fly and "good troll" being as judicious and tactful as possible. I put the labels in quotes specifically to signify that I mean them to describe their roles, not who they are. It's not personal.

Still, gotta love the assertion that the cabinets in question somehow magically sound superior when the phase trace looks like "a tornado". It's hard to believe that the ear would not hear what the graph shows.
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Good+cop.jpg
 
Re: Troll thread

I have known Leland for many years and he is genuinely a good guy who does not appear to be a nut. I do not know Doug, and he seems to be the one who has clashed more with folks here. As is obvious, they were waaaaay premature in bringing this to our attention. I believe that they honestly think they have something different (in a good way) here. Whether that makes it real or not is still up for debate.

I will reserve further judgement until I have heard these speakers myself. Leland will be sending me a pair in the near future, and I will do my best to make some sense of it at that time.
 
Re: Troll thread

Jeff Babcock said:
I have known Leland for many years and he is genuinely a good guy who does not appear to be a nut.
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I remember Leland from the BFM forums, when I was trying to outsmart economics with DIY. I have some Tuba 30's. They're OK, but didn't live up to the hype. It will be interesting to see if these cabinets live up to their hype.

Do I remember you having experience with BFM designs, Jeff?
 
Re: Troll thread

Dave Rickard said:
I remember Leland from the BFM forums, when I was trying to outsmart economics with DIY. I have some Tuba 30's. They're OK, but didn't live up to the hype. It will be interesting to see if these cabinets live up to their hype.

Do I remember you having experience with BFM designs, Jeff?
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I participated in that site for a while, typically trying to be the "bastian of reality". I think Bill got very sick of me killing the hype and giving people realistic expectations. I finally gave up after things came to a head on one occasion when folks were telling a user that DIY cabs from the site could compete with a D&B rig for which the user had already auditioned and was intending to buy.

I did build 2 of his designs just to try them out. The Titan48, which was OK but not earth shattering, and the OTop12, which was loud but which had many issues I won't go into here. The latter was used on 1 gig, that was more than enough. Funnily, I had no problem selling them though.....

I heard several other designs which also did not impress me. Too much emphasis on efficiency at the expense of fidelity.
 
Re: Troll thread

Jeff Babcock said:
I participated in that site for a while, typically trying to be the "bastian of reality". I think Bill got very sick of me killing the hype and giving people realistic expectations. I finally gave up after things came to a head on one occasion when folks were telling a user that DIY cabs from the site could compete with a D&B rig for which the user had already auditioned and was intending to buy.

I did build 2 of his designs just to try them out. The Titan48, which was OK but not earth shattering, and the OTop12, which was loud but which had many issues I won't go into here. The latter was used on 1 gig, that was more than enough. Funnily, I had no problem selling them though.....

I heard several other designs which also did not impress me. Too much emphasis on efficiency at the expense of fidelity.
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I can pretty much echo this. Even after reading all the spats about BFM designs, a guy close to me swore they were the bee's knees, so I decided to take the "try one for yourself challenge". I originally contacted a builder and got quoted an outrageous figure for a T30 (I won't mention dollar amounts in an attempt to be respectful), based on some prior DIY experience I ended up deciding to build my own and see what the results were.

Keep in mind, Bill's site states specifically "In fact, a Tuba loaded with a single ten and 100 watts input will out power an eighteen in a traditional cabinet driven by 800 watts!" My experience would have to disagree, in fact when I compared the T30 to a 718, the 718 was already 1-3 Db ahead of the Tuba at 50v (which many would know is the 'voltage limit' that is specified in this plan) I seem to recall Art was shoving upwards of 80V into a 718 at one point, power compression aside I feel it's pretty safe to say that the 718 is capable of more output. You can also find used 718s for way less than I was quoted for the T30, the value is just not there, the Lab 12 driver is now living happily in one of Art's Lab2x12 designs (which I am thoroughly impressed with).

Personally, I think Leland should try to separate himself from that crowd, they don't even seem to keen to give BigE any love around there, Bill put the lid on that.
 
Re: Troll thread

I think that probably some misconseptions about the relative capability of some of these diy subs might be that a lot of people have never had their guts and chest kicked hard by a proper pro sub at full blast. There is a vast difference between making bass that you can feel, is audible and able to rattle some windows, and making bass that is LOUD, making you lose your breath and making your guts feel like something is seriously wrong with your latest meal.
Some people might find it trollish to point out the difference between rattling a few roof-tiles and reproducing a shuttle launch, but in my mind the real trolls are the ones that whip the noobs for asking silly questions or seeking free advice. I certainly don't think it is trollish or even particularly ill-adviced to come on a forum and write about some new thing that one might be excited about, no matter how misguided that excitement seems to the other forum participants, or how misguided the excitement might seem in retrospect. What every visitor to a public forum should be aware of though, is that anything written on a forum might be the subject of ridicule, snide comments and what have you, regardless of the merit or lack thereof of what is being written.
 
Per Søvik said:
I think that probably some misconseptions about the relative capability of some of these diy subs might be that a lot of people have never had their guts and chest kicked hard by a proper pro sub at full blast. There is a vast difference between making bass that you can feel, is audible and able to rattle some windows, and making bass that is LOUD, making you lose your breath and making your guts feel like something is seriously wrong with your latest meal.
Some people might find it trollish to point out the difference between rattling a few roof-tiles and reproducing a shuttle launch, but in my mind the real trolls are the ones that whip the noobs for asking silly questions or seeking free advice. I certainly don't think it is trollish or even particularly ill-adviced to come on a forum and write about some new thing that one might be excited about, no matter how misguided that excitement seems to the other forum participants, or how misguided the excitement might seem in retrospect. What every visitor to a public forum should be aware of though, is that anything written on a forum might be the subject of ridicule, snide comments and what have you, regardless of the merit or lack thereof of what is being written.
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It is one thing to be excited about something new and another to claim it rewrites the laws of physics.

Especially when reasonable repeated requests go unanswered and the excited hype is just repeated.

In the course of the thread it seems we have gone from requests to help measure, to not being sure what measurements are needed, to excuses why no measurements are available, and now the tone seems to be measurement won't show what they claim to hear.

But I do agree about the limited exposure to professional level boxes. After all one of the posters website claims his professional staff does designs and installs for churches at a far lower price than anyone else, yet he seems completely unfamiliar with standard modeling and measuring software.

The report of a crossover with no filter or slope information and a 10 hz overlap in the sub and tops doesn't exactly inspire confidence either.

Oh yeah, there is also the sub design that apparently you can put 4 different drivers into without changing the box. That leaves me to wonder is the box optimized for one of the drivers or none of the drivers.

Just a couple of red flags or "your noob light is shining bright" that have popped up.

Being a noob is not a problem and was not treated negatively until they started to tell those they were asking for advice why they were wrong without evidence.
 
Re: Troll thread

Troll may be an inappropriate derogatory description. Trolls work to stir up emotional responses and are combative for the sake of a good fight.

There is nothing wrong with loving our children, but know your audience when trying to blind detractors with science as it may blow back on you.

JR
 
Re: Troll thread

John Roberts said:
Troll may be an inappropriate derogatory description. Trolls work to stir up emotional responses and are combative for the sake of a good fight.

There is nothing wrong with loving our children, but know your audience when trying to blind detractors with science as it may blow back on you.

JR
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I swear I heard Thomas Dolby in the background...
 
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