WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

[Sean Thomas]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

That information tells me that one should be very careful juding sound quality based on a video recording.

Sure, judge wisely. Listening to videos is just another tool. Many will never hear 12-14 line array systems side-by-side so it may help some. And, for the most part, the video
recording is exactly what we heard in the room. Yes, there was room ambience and some slap-back. More noticible standing further from the speaker, just like real life.

I see an event like this as step 1 or 2 in the process of buying a new system. Many will never hear their system, in their exact installed location, before they buy the system. So they must take all the info they can get to assimilate data and make a decision.

 

[Sean Thomas]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

....I heard the ANYA rig in a real world, commercial use situation: an "A" level international rock act in an arena, with the time to walk the entire venue with a mixture of noise and programme material..... Perhaps the disconnect here is that there are differing considerations of folks evaluating the systems: I'm not focused on the HoW/worship business so perhaps the things that make the ANYA, to me, an interesting & appealing choice worthy of more investigation are not things that matter to the WFX attendees.

I recently had a demo of a PreSonus portable speaker system: (2) 328AI - $1,350 ea. The specs looked incredible and I was wanting to upgrade one of my small portable systems (Yamaha DSR12 - $699 ea.) to a higher output, 3 way system. We listened to the PreSonus and it sounded incredible. The best system of it's size and weight that I had ever heard. I was ready to order.

Then, I thought I should get out my Yamaha DSR's for a true A/B comparison. I'm glad we did. The PreSonus speakers were clearly not any better Yamaha's and they were 2x the price. In my opinion, they were not as good in the mid-range oddly enough, even with it's 3-way design and dedicated 8" mid driver.

It's easy to trick the mind and ears. A true A/B is the only way to judge what things really sound like relative to each other.

I don't believe anyone can judge the quality of two speaker systems by comparing: speaker system A, in arena A, with Band A, and SE/BE A, and then speaker system B, in arena B, etc. etc. Way too many variables. So as imperfect as it is, a demo like the one at WFX does have it's place.



And speaking of Anya/Anna - is there any side-effects off all of the DSP, timing, and filtering going on to make it steer beams? Is beam-stearing just a fad?

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

- is there any side-effects off all of the DSP, timing, and filtering going on to make it steer beams? Is beam-stearing just a fad?

First you have to ask the question-HOW is the beam steering done?

It is done by adding cancellations to the signal. Basically phase shifting at different freq.

You cannot put the beam someplace that it naturally cannot go. But you can cause cancellations for places you don't want it to go.

And this comes at a price. The price is preservation of the incoming signal-ie sonic quality.

This is true of all beam steerable products or setups-such as cardioid subs.

So -as usual-you have to make a compromise. What is more important? Sonic quality or being able to steer the beam around?

Something else the manufacturers don't want to admit-is that once you start "steering" the signal away from the on axis position-the max SPL goes DOWN. Because the devices are not summing as well as when on axis.

So you may need a LARGER system to get the same SPL when it is steered.

Of course the manufacturer will be MORE THAN HAPPY to sell you additional boxes to get the extra SPL

I just have to wonder-what is going to happen in the future as computers come up with new operating systems etc.

Will people be stuck with a system that costs a lot and they don't have a computer to operate it? Or do you keep out of date computers around just for the old speaker systems?

I am going through this right now-since I got a new computer and finding out some of my old interfaces/devices no longer work due to a driver incompatability.

Just something to think about.

 

[Sean Thomas]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

First you have to ask the question-HOW is the beam steering done?

It is done by adding cancellations to the signal. Basically phase shifting at different freq. You cannot put the beam someplace that it naturally cannot go. But you can cause cancellations for places you don't want it to go.

And this comes at a price. The price is preservation of the incoming signal-ie sonic quality. So -as usual- you have to make a compromise. What is more important? Sonic quality or being able to steer the beam around?

...."steering" the signal away from the on axis position-the max SPL goes DOWN. Because the devices are not summing as well as when on axis. So you may need a LARGER system to get the same SPL when it is steered.

Great info Ian. I've not done any research as to how the process works exactly, but based on my basic understanding, I had decided that I would probably not like it based on what I "thought" it was doing with timing, phase, and filters.

I love your description of what it's not doing - which is beam steering! It is only canceling beams. The demos seem like they are bending the sound up to the balcony and then down to the front rows. In reality, the sound is already there covering everything, and they are just phase canceling certain areas with presets on the computer software.

Jeez, we spend all this time making sure everything is time-aligned and no phasing and now that's the new fad? : )

 

[mackerr]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Great info Ian(sic). I've not done any research as to how the process works exactly, but based on my basic understanding, I had decided that I would probably not like it based on what I "thought" it was doing with timing, phase, and filters.

I love your description of what it's not doing - which is beam steering! It is only canceling beams. The demos seem like they are bending the sound up to the balcony and then down to the front rows. In reality, the sound is already there covering everything, and they are just phase canceling certain areas with presets on the computer software.

Jeez, we spend all this time making sure everything is time-aligned and no phasing and now that's the new fad? : )

Sean, have you listened to any beam steering speaker systems? Maybe some Meyer Sound Labs Cals, or Martin Audio MLAs, or EAW Anya, Anna, or KF900, or Renkus Heinz Iconyx or IC Live, or Duran Intellevox? I've listened to almost all of them (no Anya), and they have all been very good at what they claim they will do. I suggest you actually listen to speakers before passing judgement on the Internet.

Mac

 

[Sean Thomas]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Sean, have you listened to any beam steering speaker systems? Maybe some Meyer Sound Labs Cals, or Martin Audio MLAs, or EAW Anya, Anna, or KF900, or Renkus Heinz Iconyx or IC Live, or Duran Intellevox? I've listened to almost all of them (no Anya), and they have all been very good at what they claim they will do. I suggest you actually listen to speakers before passing judgement on the Internet.
Mac

Uhhh, I guess you just read my last post and not any previous posts or watched the video. YES - I have heard many, including EAW Anna, RH IC2, and several column arrays, all with beam steering.

I've made a few relevent points:

1. If you don't listen to something side-by-side you have no base line as to what something sounds like. (see PreSonus example above)
2. Beam steering may have issues, may be a fad. Do you really want 14 speakers in a box jacking with phase to cancel sound in certain areas?

It was not until I heard Anna and IC2, side by side with much, much cheaper boxes that I realized that they actually don't hold up in an A/B test.
As Ivan said, there is a sacrifice in audio quality and I completely agree with him.

Some will want a $15,000 per box solution so they can cover or not cover a balcony at the push of a button. I will just aim a box at the balcony and
turn it off/on and save $12,000 per box.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Sean, have you listened to any beam steering speaker systems? Maybe some Meyer Sound Labs Cals, or Martin Audio MLAs, or EAW Anya, Anna, or KF900, or Renkus Heinz Iconyx or IC Live, or Duran Intellevox? I've listened to almost all of them (no Anya), and they have all been very good at what they claim they will do. I suggest you actually listen to speakers before passing judgement on the Internet.

Mac

Agreed

When I say they are giving up sonic quality,it does not mean that they sound bad.

But not as good as a "pure source" without the cancellations.

I have installed quite a few of the Duran Intellevox systems.

While far from my choice of a "reference loudspeaker", they do the intended job very well and much better than some other steerable systems that claim to have "better sound".

Yes they do "sound better" but don't work as well as the Intellivox-in applications where high directivity/speech clarity etc is important.

Just like all loudspeakers they are "tools" and different jobs require different tools.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Sean, have you listened to any beam steering speaker systems? Maybe some Meyer Sound Labs Cals, or Martin Audio MLAs, or EAW Anya, Anna, or KF900, or Renkus Heinz Iconyx or IC Live, or Duran Intellevox? I've listened to almost all of them (no Anya), and they have all been very good at what they claim they will do. I suggest you actually listen to speakers before passing judgement on the Internet.

Mac

Also-another way to look at it is to compare it to combfiltering.

Many people talk about combfiltering as if it was this big nasty sound.

Yet it is real easy to fool even experience sound guys with 100% combfiltering.

I bet most people could not pick it out-UNTIL it is removed-and then the sound gets clearer.

 

[Arthur Skudra]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Sean, I don't think steerable arrays can be considered a "fad" since the principles and knowledge for line array technology have been around for well over 50 years. You must be drinking the Danley koolaid too much (Ivan I'm just speaking in jest before you get your shorts in a knot)! It's just that advancements in technology have made steerable arrays feasible in the recent past. Is it the right solution every time? Absolutely not. However steerable arrays do offer certain advantages in acoustically challenging spaces where the control of the field of coverage is an absolute must, or the position of the speaker is compromised for the sake of sightlines or aesthetics. I wish every job I do can be done with the purity of a point source, but the reality is that we are always juggling compromises in design, and sometimes a steerable array is the only solution that is suitable for certain situations. Having listened to and evaluated EAW Anya and Martin Audio MLA, properly set up they sound wonderful, however they serve a small niche in the market given their price, and would be suitable for a few select venues. I did a demo with Anya in a very large church, it sounded fantastic, and was suited very well for some serious limitations in room geometry and sightlines. But the client declined primarily because of budget and "political" issues. Perhaps the Anna would be a better fit in this situation? Maybe, but it wasn't available at the time.

Likewise the same can be said for steerable column arrays such as the EAW DSA, Meyer CAL, Renkus Iconyx, Tannoy QFlex, and Duran Audio (now JBL) Intellivox. I've worked with them all, and in certain applications they were an ideal solution and the goals of the system met, some I like better than the others in sound quality, intelligibility, and user interface.

 

[Sean Thomas]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

they have all been very good at what they claim they will do
Mac

I agree with that, sort of. They claim by their very title to STEER BEAMS. Ivan indicates that's not exactly what's going on, but yes, they do cancel sound in areas that you do not want.

My point has absolutly nothing to do with that, but a simple side-by-side comparison of audio quality. Not sure if they win that test.

 

[Sean Thomas]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Sean, I don't think steerable arrays can be considered a "fad" since the principles and knowledge for line array technology have been around for well over 50 years. You must be drinking the Danley koolaid too much.

To clarify, I asked two questions: Is beem steering a fad? Does it sacrifice audio quality? Not so sure that is drinking any Koolaid.
You answered the first question, what about the second?

In a pure listening test, side-by-side, are there any anomalies/artifacts in the sound canceling speakers that may make them not sound as good as a traditional line array?
Example: EAW Anya vs. Martin Audio MLA, outdoor unobstructed listening environment.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

I agree with that, sort of. They claim by their very title to STEER BEAMS. Ian indicates that's not exactly what's going on, but yes, they do cancel sound in areas that you do not want.

My point has absolutly nothing to do with that, but a simple side-by-side comparison of audio quality. Not sure if they win that test.

And Arthur & I have both pointed out that these "shoot outs" are incredibly subjective and the impressions made on observers will be based on their preference bias - and that systems can be voiced to so many outcomes that whether or not a particular system agrees with the observer's preferences determines whether or not it's "good".

What claims made by EAW are not true? What claims made by anyone else are false, and what basis, other that a single exposure, do you have to make claims otherwise?

Beam forming and steering have been around a long time although practical implementations are relatively recent. To call it a fad is being incredibly simplistic.

Also take Ivan's participation with a grain of salt (as much as I like you, Ivan). He's got a competing line of products that are based on the antithesis of multi-segment, articulated vertical arrays.

 

[mackerr]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Uhhh, I guess you just read my last post and not any previous posts or watched the video. YES - I have heard many, including EAW Anna, RH IC2, and several column arrays, all with beam steering.

Was this in demos, or have you used them in a real live show? The ones I have used in real live shows (Meyer Cal, Martin MLA, and EAW KF900) performed admirably.

1. If you don't listen to something side-by-side you have no base line as to what something sounds like. (see PreSonus example above)
2. Beam steering may have issues, may be a fad. Do you really want 14 speakers in a box jacking with phase to cancel sound in certain areas?

If you don't listen to them in a real show you have no baseline of how they need to perform and whether they can do the job.

It was not until I heard Anna and IC2, side by side with much, much cheaper boxes that I realized that they actually don't hold up in an A/B test.
As Ian(sic) said, there is a sacrifice in audio quality and I completely agree with him.

As Tim pointed out shootouts are a lousy comparison, and Ivan does have a horse in this race.

Mac

 

[Arthur Skudra]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

To clarify, I asked two questions: Is beem steering a fad? Does it sacrifice audio quality? Not so sure that is drinking any Koolaid.
You answered the first question, what about the second?

In a pure listening test, side-by-side, are there any anomalies/artifacts in the sound canceling speakers that may make them not sound as good as a traditional line array?
Example: EAW Anya vs. Martin Audio MLA, outdoor unobstructed listening environment.

Well if you read my response carefully, you will note that I did mention that the MLA and Anya "sound wonderful", specifically with "A" level acts, audience in the tens of thousands. Both indoors and outdoors, in challenging conditions. Maybe I should have been more emphatic and say it sounded "wahoo" "kewl" "awesome" etc?? But I could have said the same for a Meyer LEO or L'Acoustics K2, Danley Jericho, EAW QX, or other amazing products out there. Or maybe it was the really amazing FOH engineer who knew how to mix a show properly, and makes it sound golden no matter what speaker system was used.

That's all fine and dandy, but it was the unique challenges that made me say "wow" to both "steerable" line array rigs, such as purposely steering energy off a amphitheatre roof deck, or a rear wall, and hearing the readily apparent improvements in a matter of seconds. Or the incredible consistency in SPL level and frequency response from front seat in the orchestra section to the top row of the nosebleed seats, without having to use fill speakers as I would with other systems. Setup in minutes, not hours or days. Mind blowing considering how we had to do things in the "good old days"...

The only koolaid I'm referring to is Ivan's tagline "Physics, not fads". In no way am I disparaging the excellent products Danley makes. I kinda like the tagline because it's honest. But it seems you loosely use it in your posts in this thread when referring to a very brief encounter with steerable line arrays, hence why I think you have drunk the Danley koolaid! No worries, at some point in our careers we drink the koolaid, we just don't want to admit it!!! I'm kinda partial to oranges and strawberries!

I can't help but think you're asking the wrong questions, maybe making some assumptions here. It's not a simple matter of one sounding better than the other. Granted if you put a really good point source box next to a line array, it will be apparent that the two will sound different, is one better than the other? Who is to judge? My beef with shootouts is that it's really hard to have a objective evaluation of ALL the parameters involved. You're simply not comparing apples to apples, and never will. Furthermore, everyone will already be conditioned to the sound they are comfortable with, and that will definitely cloud one's judgement. Finally the environment is usually far from optimal.

So to answer your second question, if you compare a steerable line array to a conventional line array, if both are designed and deployed correctly and we are making a fair comparison in size, and suspend both arrays in exactly the same point in free space, the perceived difference will be barely perceptible. Whether the constructive and destructive interaction between devices is physical or electronic, it really makes little difference IMHO, except that you have more flexibility and capability with a steerable array. However, when you add some boundary surfaces, demanding producers, lighting and set designers, crazy musician ideas, budget limitations, SPL police, then all hell breaks loose! Then you start figuring out which is the right solution, and put to rest what you assumed you heard at the shootout. No one size fits all.

Now back to modelling a sound system solution for an arena....perhaps Anya will be the solution???

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

It should also be noted that judging a sound system that is supposed to be used with sources in the room, microphones and mixing in real time by using mastered mixes off a cd is a pretty weak method, although we all do it.
I've done several shows on systems that are designed and used for playback of pre-recorded stuff(AKA DJ-systems) from several well-known manufacturers of such. They sound amazing on the DJ tracks but once you try to put a live vocal mic, a drumkit and a guitar through the same system a lot of interesting things happen.

Not all systems that sounds good on a CD is usable for live sound.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Hey Ivan,

I've gotten a few complaints about your posts here. I don't think Danley would think it was so hot if your competitors were picking apart one of your products in public. I understand you want to discuss the concept of steerable loudspeakers, but as that concept is embodied in a product from our friends at EAW in this particular case it sounds like you're trashing their flagship array boxes. I know you wouldn't intend to do that, but it's not like you don't have a horse in this race, so for better or for worse that's how it comes off.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Hey Ivan,

I've gotten a few complaints about your posts here. I don't think Danley would think it was so hot if your competitors were picking apart one of your products in public. I understand you want to discuss the concept of steerable loudspeakers, but as that concept is embodied in a product from our friends at EAW in this particular case it sounds like you're trashing their flagship array boxes. I know you wouldn't intend to do that, but it's not like you don't have a horse in this race, so for better or for worse that's how it comes off.

And if people would actually read my posts, (instead of reading INTO them) they might see something different.

Such as when I posted about the Intellivox.

And BTW-those opinions existed (and I have posted about in the past) BEFORE Danley even existed.

My other posts basically describe what is ACTUALLY happening. Not marketing hype.

I am VERY OPEN for anybody to point out anything that I have said that is not technically correct.

Opinions are one thing-different people like different things.

But talking technical and how things work is a totally different thing (in my opinion)

It is these basic concepts that are important for people to understand.

So-again- if I have said anything technically wrong-please point it out. That is one area that I hate to be wrong in.

I think that is important for people to.

At least one manufacturer (Meyer) says on their website that with the CAl-once you start to "steer" the beam the SPL goes down.

So my repeating this is not saying anything new-or bad-just the facts.

But I know some people do not like "facts" and just like to "believe". Just look at politics-but we won't go there

If these various products are actually STEERING (ie moving) the beam, then I would be curious as to how they are doing it.

Loudspeakers simple radiate into space (like a pebble in a pond).

You can act upon this radiation by several means-physical boundaries (like Danley does), or by introducing "other ripples-by other pebbles) whose waves will both add and subtract from the original pebbles waves (which is what the steerable products-and anytime you have multiple products covering the same area)

But the waves of the original pebble are not as "pure", as if it was a single pebble.

BUT it may be more important to keep the ripples going in one direction, than to be concerned with the "shape" of them.

All the various products out there have a place and are intended for a particular usage.

It all comes down to what is most important. Different usages have different (sometimes completely different) needs and therefore completely different approaches are needed for different "solutions".

Going back to the Intellivox, It is far from the "nicest sounding speaker" in terms of audio fidelity.

But that did not stop me from installing quite a few of them-and with EXCELLENT results. The rooms that they were used in, were typically acoustically "challenged" spaces, and the primary usage was spoken word.

And they do that very well, and they "disappear" pretty well also into the architecture.

Would I use them for a home stereo-no way.

It is all a matter of choosing the proper tool for the job. One size does not fit all.

But it is also important for people to understand the differences in the tools.

To a hammer-everything looks like a nail. But you don't hammer a screw in (or at least you should not), but I see people do it all the time. Sure it goes in-and "kinda holds", but not as well as if you had used the proper screw driver.

 

[Sean Thomas]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

It should also be noted that judging a sound system that is supposed to be used with sources in the room, microphones and mixing in real time by using mastered mixes off a cd is a pretty weak method, although we all do it. Not all systems that sounds good on a CD is usable for live sound.

Yes, I am suggesting for the next WFX Loudspeaker Demo in Louisville, they play music that is more applicable to the HoW market. Even have a demo with spoken word and headset live in the room. One round of CD is fine, but more variety and live sources would be better.

 

[Sean Thomas]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Thinking about Ivan's description of how the sound canceling (not beam steering) speakers work.....

If the bottom box of the Anna array that we saw at WFX was able to produce coverage nearly straight down, I have to assume that ALL boxes in that array have a very wide vertical dispursion. Probably asymetrical?

If that is correct, that means all of the boxes above the bottom box, must severely limit its vertical dispursion using it's sound canceling techniques. That would mean that virtually ALL of the sound coming from that style of array has the original signal radically altered and not just certain extremes up/down or left/right.

Can anyone confirm this is what is happening AND anyone know the actual vertical dispursion of the unprocessed Anya/Anna cabs?

 

[mackerr]

Re: WFX Nashville Live Sound Int. Speaker Demo

Thinking about Ivan's description of how the sound canceling (not beam steering) speakers work.....

If the bottom box of the Anna array that we saw at WFX was able to produce coverage nearly straight down, I have to assume that ALL boxes in that array have a very wide vertical dispursion. Probably asymetrical?

If you accept Ivan's assertion that only the cancellation zones can be manipulated, but not their corresponding summation zones that might be true. I think the evidence of the relatively successful implementation by multiple manufacturers says otherwise. I think the hallowed immutable laws of physics say so as well. There is no moving of cancellation without a move of summation.

If that is correct, that means all of the boxes above the bottom box, must severely limit its vertical dispursion using it's sound canceling techniques. That would mean that virtually ALL of the sound coming from that style of array has the original signal radically altered and not just certain extremes up/down or left/right.

Can anyone confirm this is what is happening AND anyone know the actual vertical dispursion of the unprocessed Anya/Anna cabs?

It would be hard to tell since there is no such thing as an "unprocessed" Anya or MLA, part of the design is that there is a individual channel of DSP and amplification for every driver in the system, and that the system is aware of how each of them is being processed. In the case of Anya that is 22 channels of control in a single box. That control includes eq, delay, level, and phase. There is no horizontal control, only vertical. Horizontal coverage is changed by hanging another array.

Mac