What would you do?

[Tim Weaver]

Re: What would you do?

So, here's the game plan guys.

I'm making some modifications to the subs I currently have. They currently have cheap rubber feet on their bottoms, and really don't create a nice "seamless" looking stack. My plan is to make skids to interlock the cabinets. Tops will have an area routed out 1/4", bottoms will have a skid that sticks up 1/4" to lock them together. It will make a much nicer "looking" seam between the cabinets, and they will almost appear to be a double 18 when stacked. Then, to top it off, I plan to create a dolly board that also has the same skid pattern on them to lock the bottom cabinet to it. They will stack 3 high on the dolly board, and get a nice black ratchet strap the hole the whole thing together. Transports in stacks of 3, easy as pie!

Time to fire up the wood working tools... Here comes another round of single 18's!



Evan

This was going to be my suggestion. Spend some time on packaging the subs you have now to transport in duals or triples on a dolly board. Then having a bunch of singles isn't so bad, since they are easier to move.

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: What would you do?

I'm not sure I understand this. Care to elaborate?

btw, I do understand that a dual 18" sub box is the typical subwoofer arrangement but I'm not sure why 2 single 18" boxes with the same drivers, alignment and build quality would not be as 'acceptable' to a BE as the double box. Are you referring to the fact that 2 single boxes will, all things being equal, take up a little bit more total volume than a double box of the same capability? The fact that it's a proprietary box in the first place seems to me to be the most significant factor here.

Further, as someone who does a lot of shows that are not rock bands in clubs or EDM techno twister raves I say kudos to Evan for using the smallest divisible version of his design. I'm not sure where most of Evan's rentals are going but the smaller boxes are much more friendly to smaller gigs as well as the testy event planner who values what her attendees see over what her attendees hear. What I don't understand is why Evan made run of the mill vented boxes when there are several other designs available [manipulated vortex anyone?]. If you're gonna build something proprietary, make it worth it.

If you are doing gigs where you are loading and stacking yourself and a single 18" cab provides adequate lf information for some/many/most of your shows, then a single 18" box would seem a good basic building block. If you are doing shows that have BEs/PMs that advance their dates, it is most probable that they are used to playing venues where 2x18 sub cabinets are the norm. If I were a PM and the sound provider advanced single 18" subs it would tweak my "danger Will Robinson" antennae. Aside from creating a moment of potential anxiety with the BE/PM, there is no reason that 2 single 18" cabinets couldn't produce identical results to one double 18" cabinet if they are of the same design. Everybody's work environment is not the same. By all means use whatever suits your overall needs best.

 

[drew gandy]

Re: What would you do?

Interesting. So here's a hypothetical just for curiosity sake. If a provider advanced "qty (6) 2x18 subs" would you immediately think that they were name brand or proprietary? Or would that thought not typically come to mind?

Btw, when you said 'practical' in your previous post I thought that maybe there was something about the double package that you felt was a better solution, physically.

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: What would you do?

Interesting. So here's a hypothetical just for curiosity sake. If a provider advanced "qty (6) 2x18 subs" would you immediately think that they were name brand or proprietary? Or would that thought not typically come to mind?

Btw, when you said 'practical' in your previous post I thought that maybe there was something about the double package that you felt was a better solution, physically.

Remember that I come at this from the perspective of the provider - not the user. However, in this hypothetical advance, when the provider offers "qty (6) 2x18 subs", do they also offer "qty (12) 12"/6"/1" tops" and "qty (2) 48 channel digital consoles"? I suppose if you were going to design and build part of your equipment, subs would be the most likely place to achieve reasonable results. The tiresome part being having to convince every BE/PM of that circumstance on every advance. When I advance a date I always specify manufacturers make and model number and quantity of everything. When I said practical in a previous post, it was based on economy of materials, space and motion. All of which favor a single box with two 18s over two boxes with single 18s (IF you require a minimum of two 18" speakers per side). Again, this is all from personal perspective and my situation in my day to day work world. None of this is intended to be a definitive argument for the 2x18 in every situation. BUT, beyond a doubt, once a provider has hit a certain size in the systems they deploy, the 2x18 box is cheaper, faster, lighter, (and hence, better) than the same number of 18" speakers in a 1x18 package.

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: What would you do?

Exactly Steve!

Evan, as your business gets bigger you will need to provide what the customer wants and expects. Trying to explain to the customer that you are a serious company with your single 18’s, or even worse, your own special keystone (or whatever) design is better than any of the big boys designs, (even if it is) is going to be a hard sell in a competitive market.

As shows get bigger, logistics become more and more important. Your subs (and tops)will need to truck-pack efficiently and quickly. Your client will want to feel confident that what you have, will do what he needs.

There is good reason why double 18s (or variations thereof) have more or less become an industry standard

Clair » BT-218

1100-LFC : Low-Frequency Control Element

TFS-900B Subwoofer : Turbosound

Martin Audio Professional Loudspeaker Systems ? Unite Your Audience

Products - SB28 subwoofer - L-ACOUSTICS

JBL Professional :: Tour Sound :: VTX

RS18 - Nexo

 

[John Halliburton]

Re: What would you do?

So, here's the game plan guys.

I'm making some modifications to the subs I currently have. They currently have cheap rubber feet on their bottoms, and really don't create a nice "seamless" looking stack. My plan is to make skids to interlock the cabinets. Tops will have an area routed out 1/4", bottoms will have a skid that sticks up 1/4" to lock them together. It will make a much nicer "looking" seam between the cabinets, and they will almost appear to be a double 18 when stacked. Then, to top it off, I plan to create a dolly board that also has the same skid pattern on them to lock the bottom cabinet to it. They will stack 3 high on the dolly board, and get a nice black ratchet strap the hole the whole thing together. Transports in stacks of 3, easy as pie!

Time to fire up the wood working tools... Here comes another round of single 18's!



Evan

Also, make sure the skid pattern is symmetric, so that you can reverse the middle sub when you want a cardioid stack. You may want to use pieces of UHMW polyethylene, and machine them into the strips you want, mounted with screws for easy replacement.

Black Reprocessed UHMW | U.S. Plastic Corp.

I have no affiliation or experience with U.S. Plastic, just using the product listing.

Best regards,

John

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: What would you do?

Exactly Steve!
Evan, as your business gets bigger you will need to providewhat the customer wants and expects. Trying to explaining to the customer thatyou are a serious company with your single 18’s, or even worse, your own specialkeystone (or whatever) design is better than any of the big boys design, (evenif it is) is going to be a hard sell in a competitive market.
As shows get bigger, logistics become more and moreimportant. Your subs (and tops) need to truckpack efficiently and quickly. Your client will want to feel confident that whatyou have will do what he needs.
There is good reason why double 18s (or variations thereof)has more or less become an industry standard.

Actually Peter, I would argue that unless Evan is doing "rider requirement bands", carry on. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I asked 99% of my clients to point to the subwoofer, they couldn't... If he does a good enough job of coupling them to "look" that way - they wont the difference. What drives our business to the "bigger better" heights is the bands BE's. At the end of the day nobody else knows or gives a rats ass difference about speaker A or speaker B. There is only one person that does, and he's behind (or in front of) the console. People know if it "sounds bad", but they don't know why, and again, 99% of the time - its the person standing behind (or in front) of the console....(or the 4 or 5 on stage)...

 

[Marjan Milosevic]

Re: What would you do?

During the last 4-5 years Evan has build up his reputation quite well. At the level he is now, i dont think anyone that is using his services will bother with the fact that the subs are singles or doubles. He has built his reputation quite similar as me when i was mainly doing rental. My customers didnt cared what i use. They had their peace of mind when working with me and knew that the system will be adequate.
So i would stick with his plan on 3 subs on a dolly. Its what i still use for what is left of my rental business.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: What would you do?

The one problem I see is simply what does it mean to get bigger. If it is simply one stage with a bigger rig, Evan can basically rent whatever he or his client wants. If I recall at least one of his big gigs as a provider was multiple stages, and on a week to week basis he is likely to have several smaller rigs out, as opposed to one big rig. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is doing a 3 driver array with one double 18 and a single 18, which might be a reason for keeping the single 18's he already has and not repurposing the drivers and turning the boxes into waste.