Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

[Jason Lavoie]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

This post relates to my brief testing of the Cyberpower CP850PFCLCD UPS
I don't have a scope handy that will do 120V so judging the quality of the sine wave output will have to wait (or be checked by someone else)


OK, so I got frankenstein back up and running. and I'm glad I fixed it up because the cable was just as bad at the inlet as it was in the plug. the whole thing was a big fire hazard.

Some very interesting results:

Where to begin?
The AVR circuitry does nothing for overvoltage.. so if I run the input voltage right up to the setpoint the output voltage tracks it all the way until it switches to battery, and then the output drops to 120V until the voltage comes back below the setpoint. but I don't think that's usually the problem we're facing, and the max voltage can be set to whatever you feel is safe.

What the AVR circuitry DOES do is that is boosts the voltage if the input drops below 100V and stays engaged until the input voltage reaches the low setpoint at which the battery kicks in.

That all sounds cool but here's the gotcha, AVR is either on or off. and when it is on it provides a 10-12V boost.
so as I'm lowering the input voltage the output goes down slowly, then snaps UP by 10V then down slowly again until battery and then snaps UP again straight to 120.
I don't know how much that would matter to our equipment, but this is NOT a voltage regulator as we know the term.

Thinking about it more, I guess this is what every typical offline UPS does. you get to the setpoint and the output voltage jumps up to normal when it switches to battery, so maybe that's not a big deal?
if not, then there may indeed be a place for these units.. in cases where a generator feed is continually causing your UPS to dip in and out of battery power this unit could extend that window by 10V
For example, the minimum setpoint is 78V. so if you set it that low your UPS wouldn't switch over to battery power until 78V but your equipment would never see less than 88V.
If this thing reacts as quick as it's supposed to (4ms according to them) then it could effectively absorb brown-outs caused by big bass hits. your voltage would be jumping up instead of dipping, but maybe that's ok?


I'm sure some of these conclusions could fall apart real quick in a real-world situation, but that's what me, frankenstein, my Fluke 87, and a 40W light bulb were able to discern.
if anyone wants me to try anything else I'm here all week..

Jason

after doing this I looked at the Tripp-Lite unit mentioned by Othmane (the SMART1200LCD) and it mentions right in the specs that its AVR (they use the same term) circuits "regulate brownouts and overvoltages from 75V to 147V back to usable levels without using battery power" so it appears they they handle the overvoltage condition as well.
also of note is that I went looking for smaller versions of this UPS and the SMART1000LCD only claims to regulate brownouts without using battery power. so perhaps there is a size cutoff where both brands do over as well as under voltage regulating.
I'd be very curious to know whether one does it more gracefully than the other though!

 

[Phil Lewandowski]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

So I just received an S16 stagebox and IIRC someone mentioned that you want to have a UPS both on the conolse and the stagebox side. (Correct me if I wrong)

One way to do it would just to run power from the FOH UPS, but I would also like to see if there is a light and compact UPS that is rack-mountable that I can get. (To place with the stagebox(es)). Looks like 100W would be plenty. Anyone familiar with one that would fit the bill? All the small ones I find are not rack-mountable.



Thanks,
Phil

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Tripplite and APC both make low-wattage (~500VA) 1RU UPS units, for relatively reasonable prices. I'd hesitate to call any UPS "lightweight" though.

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

I thought that cheap UPS's were predominantly square-wave in output? I can hear nasty-buzz noises coming from power supplies even on computer gear that make me feel like damage is being done. (It's like running your gear off a lighting-dimmer!)

If you don't want to get a costly full sine-wave output unit then I'm thinking no UPS is better than a cheap one.
(And even some sine-wave units don't look all that great on a 'scope when loaded)

Detailed spec-sheets and specifics on the cheap-ones are very "monster-cable-esque" as mentioned previously.

The answer is simple: Do not use a <$200 UPS on your $25,000 digital console! (or a $45 one on your $8000 Stage-box)

Also, protection of gear aside, how about dropping a show because the UPS fails! Not unreasonable considering that cheap ones are intended for stationary under-desk home use.

I can't understand why console manufacturers don't offer optional external UPS type technology specifically matched for their boards? They all offer standby external PSU's with switch-over technology or shared-redundant, why not an external UPS unit that deals with the DC rails directly? It could even integrate on-screen so you can get warnings and battery status display. (Seems like something they could make good sales on)

 

[Milt Hathaway]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

I thought that cheap UPS's were predominantly square-wave in output? I can hear nasty-buzz noises coming from power supplies even on computer gear that make me feel like damage is being done. (It's like running your gear off a lighting-dimmer!)

If my $25k console's power supply cannot filter out AC line noise then I have wasted my money on a console.

 

[Brian Wynn]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

I have been using Digital consoles for many years now and I have never and never will run a UPS on any of them. The point of a digital desk is to have NO FOH racks or outboard gear. I never have had a power problem with any digital equipment what so ever. I also do not practice the theory of using the same AC source for my digital stage box and desk. I just don't seen the point in a UPS and until I have a issue I never will. Just my two cents. This goes for many gigs with tapped power and many gigs with bar power. If fact the only time I had a power lose was when I used a Furman PL Pro voltage regulator. The incoming AC raised to 130 volts and shut down my monitor console which was a LS9 at the time. Which has a universal PSU so we disconnected the Furman and carried on with the day. In this day and age with Universal PSU's in just about everything the need for regulators and UPS backups are just not needed.

 

[Lance Richens]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Just picked this up at Staples. Will be using it tonight....

Intelligent LCD Series - CP1000AVRLCD

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

If my $25k console's power supply cannot filter out AC line noise then I have wasted my money on a console.

I was referring to the mechanical vibration of transformers and other magnetics being slammed with square waves. Even during such torture I never noticed any artifacts in the audio. -(unless there was an analog piece inadvertently using the same standby power)

 

[Steve Maksim]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

So in an permanent installation, how would you combine a UPS for the console with a power sequencer for the entire system?
--Simply plugging the UPS in between the output of the sequencer and the console would seem like a disaster because the UPS would think the mains got killed when the sequencer was just trying to power down the board.
--Using a active-high control signal to the UPS from the sequencer wouldn't seem like a good design because then if the power went off momentarily in the house then the UPS would think that it was being given the signal (or lack thereof) to shut down.

So use an active-low control signal (like a normally open relay so that the UPS wants to be on when there's no voltage on the control line and wants to be off when there is voltage on the control line) to control the UPS?

 

[Tim Perry]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

I thought that cheap UPS's were predominantly square-wave in output? I can hear nasty-buzz noises coming from power supplies even on computer gear that make me feel like damage is being done. (It's like running your gear off a lighting-dimmer!)

I have a small pile of small UPS units mostly with dead batteries. These are the desktop computer backup type. All have PWM output. (pulse with modulation).

If you can follow it, this link has a pretty balanced comparison of UPS types

Understanding UPS Techno-Babble | content content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine

If you don't want to get a costly full sine-wave output unit then I'm thinking no UPS is better than a cheap one.
(And even some sine-wave units don't look all that great on a 'scope when loaded)

Detailed spec-sheets and specifics on the cheap-ones are very "monster-cable-esque" as mentioned previously.

The answer is simple: Do not use a <$200 UPS on your $25,000 digital console! (or a $45 one on your $8000 Stage-box)

Also, protection of gear aside, how about dropping a show because the UPS fails! Not unreasonable considering that cheap ones are intended for stationary under-desk home use.

I can't understand why console manufacturers don't offer optional external UPS type technology specifically matched for their boards? They all offer standby external PSU's with switch-over technology or shared-redundant, why not an external UPS unit that deals with the DC rails directly? It could even integrate on-screen so you can get warnings and battery status display. (Seems like something they could make good sales on)

I have encountered certain broadcast equipment that comes with binding post terminals impliment DC backup. The catch is it's 28 volts. Where am I going to find a 28 volt battery?

 

[Ben Gingerich]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Steve
This has been an issue for a church I have an M7 in, the short anwser is that you have to shut off the board, if you dont it doesnt really cause problems if there is enough delay between the console power and the amp power because the board should be on 1st and off last, and a UPS shouldn't delay start up, only shutdown.
However any software in the console needs to go through the full shut down process just like your computer.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

I have a small pile of small UPS units mostly with dead batteries. These are the desktop computer backup type. All have PWM output. (pulse with modulation).

Makes perfect sense, it is by far the cheapest technology to massproduce, and by now also the most efficient and "best" in any way one can think of. I don't think the low-price units we see now are much inferiour in operational terms. They probably do what they do just as well as units costing ten times as much, but mechanical construction, battery quality etc. are likely to cause a shorter life span.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Makes perfect sense, it is by far the cheapest technology to massproduce, and by now also the most efficient and "best" in any way one can think of. I don't think the low-price units we see now are much inferiour in operational terms. They probably do what they do just as well as units costing ten times as much, but mechanical construction, battery quality etc. are likely to cause a shorter life span.

Exactly. Cheap price is not always best value.

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

I have a small pile of small UPS units mostly with dead batteries. These are the desktop computer backup type. All have PWM output. (pulse with modulation).

If you can follow it, this link has a pretty balanced comparison of UPS types

Understanding UPS Techno-Babble | content content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine



I have encountered certain broadcast equipment that comes with binding post terminals impliment DC backup. The catch is it's 28 volts. Where am I going to find a 28 volt battery?

EVolve Electrics (www.Evolve Electrics.com) would be a source for 28 volt batteries.
I just replaced the AGM SLA batteries in my electric bike with two 8 packs of GBS 40 amp hour LiFePO4 batteries.
Nominally they are 24 volts (four would be "12v", 3.3v per cell), but the GBS charger (available in 12, 24, 36, &48v) takes them to 29 volts, 3.625 volts per cell.
A normal "smart" 12V charger won't harm a four pack of LiFePO4 batteries, as it won't take them to full charge.
Actually, 3.8v per cell is closer to full charge, but since some cells may be slightly lower while others receive slightly higher voltage in a pack it is not advisable to use that high a voltage for multiples without a battery management system, as LiFePO4 will be permanently damaged by taking them too high or too low in voltage.

LiFePO4 batteries are far more expensive and take more care than SLA, but weigh only a fraction of the weight for power delivered, the pair of 40 AH batteries weigh in at about 52 compared to 72 pounds for the 16 AH AGM SLA batteries. And the SLA really can only be discharged to about 55%, while the LiFePO4 can go to 80% discharge with no problems, so the weight is about 25% for power delivered.

The battery packs in the pictures below could run 10 amps of FOH gear for over 3 hours!

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Exactly. Cheap price is not always best value.

You are right, crap at even the cheapest price is unlikely to be much value. However, quality mass-market stuff, when it is able to do the job, is likely to be a lot more value for money than the top of the line stuff. A Toyota is never going to be a Rolls Royce, but will do most things better at a much lower cost.
I'm going with a low cost Eaton 3S, one that fits right inside the flight case. If I have to replace it in a couple of years, I'm still way ahead of the depreciation of a "pro" unit.

 

[Aaron Hammett]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

So in an permanent installation, how would you combine a UPS for the console with a power sequencer for the entire system?
--Simply plugging the UPS in between the output of the sequencer and the console would seem like a disaster because the UPS would think the mains got killed when the sequencer was just trying to power down the board.
--Using a active-high control signal to the UPS from the sequencer wouldn't seem like a good design because then if the power went off momentarily in the house then the UPS would think that it was being given the signal (or lack thereof) to shut down.

So use an active-low control signal (like a normally open relay so that the UPS wants to be on when there's no voltage on the control line and wants to be off when there is voltage on the control line) to control the UPS?

Putting the X32 on a sequencer is unnecessary and a bit "chicken and egg". Start the board then start the sequence. That's how I'm doing it.

 

[Eric Eskam]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

and with 10 outlets (half on UPS, half with surge only) it replaces a power bar (which if you're going rackmount isn't cheap)
too good to be true?

Not for me. I've been using them on servers for over three years with no issues - have performed flawlessly through power outages or brownout/spikes. CyberPower has been my go to brand for several years now, and you can't beat the value.

APC has been going down in quality and riding on their name for years now. My favorite online (double conversion) UPS vendor was S.M.A.R.T. but APC bought 'em quite a while ago. I used to be able to pick out the APC's that were based on S.M.A.R.T. designs, but they have slowly been replaced by cheaper designs I've also had several failures with TrippLite, a brand that I used to trust. Too bad companies keep cheapening their designs If it's going to be a crap shoot then I might as well pay less.

EDIT: and to be clear, I use the CyberPower double conversion models. They do (obviously) regulate voltage and not just boost. Yup, they are a couple hundred more but worth it.

 

[Peter Etheredge]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

On the topic of UPS, does anyone make a reasonably priced unit that can integrate into an existing power sequencer system via something like a contact closure or 12v signal.

Basically I'm looking at a situation where an installed analog console is being upgraded to digital and I'd like to have the mixer on the sequencer while still having UPS. Obviously that means that the UPS needs to be able to have it's outlets turned remotely on and off. I love Furman sequencer systems and have installed many of them but their UPS units don't' seem to have this ability.

 

[Jason Lavoie]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

On the topic of UPS, does anyone make a reasonably priced unit that can integrate into an existing power sequencer system via something like a contact closure or 12v signal.

Basically I'm looking at a situation where an installed analog console is being upgraded to digital and I'd like to have the mixer on the sequencer while still having UPS. Obviously that means that the UPS needs to be able to have it's outlets turned remotely on and off. I love Furman sequencer systems and have installed many of them but their UPS units don't' seem to have this ability.

I believe the newer furman UPSs have the ability to sequence the outlets on the back, and I could be wrong but I think they also have some non-UPS outlets that can be part of the sequencing.

Jason

 

[Steve Maksim]

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

On the topic of UPS, does anyone make a reasonably priced unit that can integrate into an existing power sequencer system via something like a contact closure or 12v signal.

Basically I'm looking at a situation where an installed analog console is being upgraded to digital and I'd like to have the mixer on the sequencer while still having UPS. Obviously that means that the UPS needs to be able to have it's outlets turned remotely on and off. I love Furman sequencer systems and have installed many of them but their UPS units don't' seem to have this ability.

I've thought about this a little more since I brought it up last month. I think a possibility might be a time-delay relay between the UPS and the board that's controlled by the sequencer. I'm talking about something like this (which, incidentally, I use for a delay off on my bathroom fan), except that the power handling is borderline for the X32 at 1A, assuming 120VAC mains--on 240VAC you're fine:
DAYTON Relay, Time Delay - Time Delay Relays - 6A859|6A859 - Grainger Industrial Supply

Normal operation: When you turn on the sequencer, it closes the relay, allowing juice to flow from the UPS to the console. When you turn off the sequencer, it sets up a delayed opening on the relay, eventually cutting off power to the board.

Brown/Black-out operation: Assuming that everything's off, then there are no state changes during the outage, just as you'd "expect." Assuming that things are powered on, then the sequencer cuts power to "everything," including the control line to the power-delay relay. The nice thing here, though, is that, because of the delay, the console stays on, powered by the UPS. If it's just a little blip, then the rest of your system comes back up shortly. If it's a prolonged outage, the operator has time to bring the console down gently (or they choose to either ignore it or cross their fingers).

Notes on that particular relay, since the notation on the device leaves something to be desired. According to Grainger, who commissioned the product:
"1: To Load (HOT)
"2: Line (HOT)
"3: Line Neutral
"6 & 7 would need to be shorted to engage (mV control signal) < 6' to 10' from switch... "

On several blogs folks have said they tied #6 to Neutral and #7 to switched HOT... though that may "work", it's not reccomended. If the available control line has voltage (12VDC or mains) on it, you could use it to close a normally open relay that's connected to pins 6 & 7.