Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Jason Lavoie said:
I believe the newer furman UPSs have the ability to sequence the outlets on the back, and I could be wrong but I think they also have some non-UPS outlets that can be part of the sequencing.Jason
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Both the Furman and Middle Atlantic UPS's can be sequenced on and off by external devices.

However I am only familiar with doing this via RS-232 serial control, not GPIO...

It is a function that is available.
 
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Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Great if a UPS gives you piece of mind. FWIW though, I've been using a digital console for 4 years and roughly 200 shows in maybe 100 venues now and have never once had a problem. If there was a power issue the keys, speaker amps, guitar processors, e-drums, etc, would all go out too so it wouldn't much matter that my mixer stayed up.

Also, FWIW, my digital console is a Presonus StudioLive, an obvious entry level piece. Again, not a single problem in at least 1,000 hours of passing audio in front of 100 - 3000 people.
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Sean Zurbrick said:
Great if a UPS gives you piece of mind. FWIW though, I've been using a digital console for 4 years and roughly 200 shows in maybe 100 venues now and have never once had a problem. If there was a power issue the keys, speaker amps, guitar processors, e-drums, etc, would all go out too so it wouldn't much matter that my mixer stayed up.

Also, FWIW, my digital console is a Presonus StudioLive, an obvious entry level piece. Again, not a single problem in at least 1,000 hours of passing audio in front of 100 - 3000 people.
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+1

UPS completely useless!!!
 
Brian Wynn said:
+1

UPS completely useless!!!
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Some digital consoles take longer than others to fully reboot. The Allen & Heath iLive stage box/brain will come right back after a power failure, but the controller requires what feels like 3min. to fully come back up. I had a quick half second power outage where this happened at the very beginning of a church service. We bought a Middle Atlantic UPS the next day.
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Sean Zurbrick said:
Great if a UPS gives you piece of mind. FWIW though, I've been using a digital console for 4 years and roughly 200 shows in maybe 100 venues now and have never once had a problem. If there was a power issue the keys, speaker amps, guitar processors, e-drums, etc, would all go out too so it wouldn't much matter that my mixer stayed up.

Also, FWIW, my digital console is a Presonus StudioLive, an obvious entry level piece. Again, not a single problem in at least 1,000 hours of passing audio in front of 100 - 3000 people.
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10 minutes ago, during walk in, 2 minutes before the CEO goes onstage to intro the guest speaker, we lost all power to audio and video. I was running music from my laptop, which has a built in UPS, and using an M7 console, and all powered speakers, a couple of UPAs and a few L'Acoustic 108s. It got very quiet when the power went off and the video screens got very dark. Lighting was still working. When my A2 ran to the dock where the tie in was he found the guy from the company supplying the power to the show had pulled the power based on some wrong information. We told him to put it back, and we had sound instantaneously for the rest of walk in while we waited for the video projectors to restart.

I will always have a UPS on a digital console, just as I have since I first started using them in 2000. If you feel your show isn't worth the investment leave it home, my shows are worth it.

Mac
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

mackerr said:
10 minutes ago, during walk in, 2 minutes before the CEO goes onstage to intro the guest speaker, we lost all power to audio and video. I was running music from my laptop, which has a built in UPS, and using an M7 console, and all powered speakers, a couple of UPAs and a few L'Acoustic 108s. It got very quiet when the power went off and the video screens got very dark. Lighting was still working. When my A2 ran to the dock where the tie in was he found the guy from the company supplying the power to the show had pulled the power based on some wrong information. We told him to put it back, and we had sound instantaneously for the rest of walk in while we waited for the video projectors to restart.

I will always have a UPS on a digital console, just as I have since I first started using them in 2000. If you feel your show isn't worth the investment leave it home, my shows are worth it.

Mac
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Ok, so kind of proves both points I guess. Your board was still powered but everything else was out so there was an interuption. If your board takes a long time to boot up then there's merit. In my case the board is probably something like 10 seconds to boot up. It's not worth the weight, space and expense for me. I honestly didn't know higher end boards took so long to come back to life.

As far as "worth the investment" that's a sliding scale for anyone of fund allocation and priority. IMO, it would be silly to have a UPS, but not a backup mixer for instance (or backup wireless mics, speakers, etc). Heck, we have a backup drum module that sits right under the live one. How many bands do that? We've actually had to switch a drum module out so in our case that was money better spent.
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Brian Wynn said:
UPS completely useless!!!
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Er, the power going out causing a reboot is hardly the only negative consequence of bad power. Often it's the most benign consequence - equipment damage is not unheard of. Especially in a situation with temporary power, the probability of equipment damage from dirty power is much higher.

Even for an X32 the UPS represents less than 10% of the cost of the console - it's pretty cheap insurance!
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Eric Eskam said:
Er, the power going out causing a reboot is hardly the only negative consequence of bad power. Often it's the most benign consequence - equipment damage is not unheard of. Especially in a situation with temporary power, the probability of equipment damage from dirty power is much higher.

Even for an X32 the UPS represents less than 10% of the cost of the console - it's pretty cheap insurance!
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What, exactly, is "dirty power" and how does it damage equipment (presuming the voltage is within 15% of nominal)?
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

When I think of dirty power, attractive women with the sexual prowess of a teenage boy and a drink in their hand come to mind...
 
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Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Years ago, I had the unpleasant experience of watching a crowd of about 50K (while a major international touring act was on stage) breathe a collective sigh of dissapointment as a festival sound system got very quiet, all because of improper use of a UPS. The touring FOH console (Avid) had both power supplies of it's FOH rack on a UPS which, because the festival promoter supplied a non-crystal sync generator, switched to battery power during the set. These types of generators do not necessarily maintain a perfect 60 hz wave, and many UPS units do not like that. The UPS decided to switch to battery power, which of course nobody noticed as the little beeping piezo and blinky light was not loud enough to overcome 100 boxes of PA and a massive moving light rig.

Ever since that day, our policy is this: consoles with 1 power supplies run off regular shore/generator power. Consoles with 2 power supplies have 1 PS running off shore/generator power and the other off a UPS.



Eric Cagle said:
I am posting this in JV to again remind all users of digital consoles how important a good uninterruptable power supply is for your digital devices. EVERY software related glitch or gremlin I have ever had with any digital device has been caused by a power spike or brownout. Since I began using a UPS many years ago I have never had any software or operating system related problems since. I even use one at FOH on my analog systems to send stable power to my digital effects and processing. Never a single problem in the last 10 years related to power. It is a cheap insurance policy. You don't need a very powerful unit, just enough to keep the voltage fluctuations from reaching your gear.
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Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

We do the same thing, and with the Avid desks plug the VGA monitor into the regular power. If you lose the screen you know the desk is running on the UPS.


Gabe Nahshon said:
Years ago, I had the unpleasant experience of watching a crowd of about 50K (while a major international touring act was on stage) breathe a collective sigh of dissapointment as a festival sound system got very quiet, all because of improper use of a UPS. The touring FOH console (Avid) had both power supplies of it's FOH rack on a UPS which, because the festival promoter supplied a non-crystal sync generator, switched to battery power during the set. These types of generators do not necessarily maintain a perfect 60 hz wave, and many UPS units do not like that. The UPS decided to switch to battery power, which of course nobody noticed as the little beeping piezo and blinky light was not loud enough to overcome 100 boxes of PA and a massive moving light rig.

Ever since that day, our policy is this: consoles with 1 power supplies run off regular shore/generator power. Consoles with 2 power supplies have 1 PS running off shore/generator power and the other off a UPS.
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Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Tim McCulloch said:
What, exactly, is "dirty power" and how does it damage equipment (presuming the voltage is within 15% of nominal)?
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Dirty (low quality) power can take many forms, but typically includes one or more of:

* significant voltage fluctuation, particularly over short time frames
* significant waveform distortion (e.g. harmonic content)
* significant frequesncy fluctuation

Most SMPS units don't care too much about voltage and frequency fluctuation within their design parameters (usually 50-60hz, 100-240V nominal), but excessive harmonic content can cause them to run hot. A power supply that runs hot doesn't last all that long.
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Dick Rees said:
When I hear the term "dirty power" what comes to mind is non-inverter, construction type generators.
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For me anything that causes the voltage to change quickly - either drop, sage or boost. There are any number of things that can cause it, doubly so whenever you are in any kind of an event situation with temporary power.

Again, good double conversion UPS's are less than 10% of even a "cheapo" console like the X32 - it's really silly to try to rationalize not having one...
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Eric Eskam said:
For me anything that causes the voltage to change quickly - either drop, sage or boost. There are any number of things that can cause it, doubly so whenever you are in any kind of an event situation with temporary power.

Again, good double conversion UPS's are less than 10% of even a "cheapo" console like the X32 - it's really silly to try to rationalize not having one...
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I'm a big believer in UPS with AVR.

The reason I asked what constitutes "dirty power" is because the term is thrown about a great deal, almost always without a description of the actual anomaly.

Rob T's offering of waveform distortion is dirt. It's a by-product of a number of commercial and industrial products, from computers to variable speed/frequency motor control and is something where we seldom have control over the source(s). In Gabe Nashon's UPS comments, the generator's frequency instability was "dirt" to the UPS but would not have been dirt to the console PSU.

Most of what I hear that is attributed to "dirty power" is actually bad gain staging and poor shielding in back line rigs or "Pin 1 Problem" devices in the PA/monitor system.
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Tim McCulloch said:
Most of what I hear that is attributed to "dirty power" is actually bad gain staging and poor shielding in back line rigs or "Pin 1 Problem" devices in the PA/monitor system.
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And the "solution" that's offered is a rack mount power "conditioner", which certainly doesn't help with voltage regulation, or really any audio noise either.
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Folks, you gotta be careful. If you add a UPS, what you are actually doing is adding another 'point of failure'!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 'don't get one', but what I am saying is that if you do, you gotta make sure that it is a good quality one (which may cost more than the 10% of even an X32!) Lets face it, you always get what you pay for, so going down to your local electronics store to bick up a 'bargain bin' UPS probably is not the best approach.

Not only are you adding in additional electronics, but additional connectors as well, as you daisychain the power. Make sure that the power plugs can be secured or screwed in place, and that the power switch for the UPS isn't a standard rocker or 'press' switch that one can bump with the knee, make sure it is sheilded.

As an aside, I'm certainly not an authority on UPS's, but I know there are 2 types. The Standby type and the Online type. The Standby type (which is usually the cheapest) passes your mains current through, and only when it detects a power failure, or a significant brown-out voltage, does it click over to the battery circuitry. The Online type uses the power supply to continually charge the batterties, while supplying power to the load using the battery circuitry.

As you can see, the standby type will do nothing for you to clean up 'dirty power', or minor voltage fluctuations. The Online type will do a much better job at protecting your equipment.

So..... be careful out there!

(then of course, there are the UPS's that modify a chopped waveform by using inductors and capacitors, and are nasty beasts in terms of audio, then those are the ones that generate a nice tidy sine wave.)

10%....? Not so sure about that.
 
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS

Sean Verwey said:
(then of course, there are the UPS's that modify a chopped waveform by using inductors and capacitors, and are nasty beasts in terms of audio, then those are the ones that generate a nice tidy sine wave.)
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I feel like we all spend so much time talking about 'dirty power' on our consoles. Why does it matter if we're not getting a perfect 60Hz, 120V sine wave into our digital console? In most, the first thing the power signal will do is go through a rectifier in the console's power supply anyway to turn it into DC!
 
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