Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
I take it you didn't read the posts previous to your own.
I take it you didn't read the posts previous to your own.
Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
- Thread starter Eric Cagle
- Start date
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
In the 'old days' that would have been true, when we were using a hulk of a transformer and nice big capacitors. This is very resilient to power dips etc, because there is that big capacitor storing the energy for a second or two while the power recovers. Now days, most equipment comes out with switch mode supplies, which is full of electronics, and these tend to be more sensitive to the quality of the power supply.
I think though that there are two points of interest here, the one is power quality, and the other is keeping your console alive during a power outage, because your console might take a considerable amount of time to boot up when power is restored. If that is not a problem, or your console boots in 10 seconds, then the ony consideration for using a UPS will be power quality, and it might then be good enough to use a line conditioner to help address that issue.
In the 'old days' that would have been true, when we were using a hulk of a transformer and nice big capacitors. This is very resilient to power dips etc, because there is that big capacitor storing the energy for a second or two while the power recovers. Now days, most equipment comes out with switch mode supplies, which is full of electronics, and these tend to be more sensitive to the quality of the power supply.
I think though that there are two points of interest here, the one is power quality, and the other is keeping your console alive during a power outage, because your console might take a considerable amount of time to boot up when power is restored. If that is not a problem, or your console boots in 10 seconds, then the ony consideration for using a UPS will be power quality, and it might then be good enough to use a line conditioner to help address that issue.
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
Tim, I actually did read all the posts, because I was curious to see what others' thoughts were, and I have just re-read them. But I still don't understand what point you are trying to make? You believe that I have missed something, and perhaps I have, so would you be so kind as to clarify this....
Tim, I actually did read all the posts, because I was curious to see what others' thoughts were, and I have just re-read them. But I still don't understand what point you are trying to make? You believe that I have missed something, and perhaps I have, so would you be so kind as to clarify this....
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
Circuits made up of inductors and capacitors are normally known as "filters", an example of which might be a "lowpass filter". One use of a lowpass filter is to remove higher order harmonics, such as may be required to convert a square wave into a sine wave.
Circuits made up of inductors and capacitors are normally known as "filters", an example of which might be a "lowpass filter". One use of a lowpass filter is to remove higher order harmonics, such as may be required to convert a square wave into a sine wave.
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
Switch mode power supplies have filter capacitors on the outputs, the same as the old iron linear power supplies. They just tend to be smaller because the frequency in question is on the order of tens of kilohertz, not 120hz. But there's no reason why a manufacturer couldn't add more storage to the output (and in fact, many SMPS units will ride through a brief power interruption).
As far as power quality goes, SMPS units tend to be more tolerant of voltage fluctuations than the old iron units, but more sensitive to excessive waveform distortion (transformers tend to function as filters). I believe I addressed some of this further up the thread.
Switch mode power supplies have filter capacitors on the outputs, the same as the old iron linear power supplies. They just tend to be smaller because the frequency in question is on the order of tens of kilohertz, not 120hz. But there's no reason why a manufacturer couldn't add more storage to the output (and in fact, many SMPS units will ride through a brief power interruption).
As far as power quality goes, SMPS units tend to be more tolerant of voltage fluctuations than the old iron units, but more sensitive to excessive waveform distortion (transformers tend to function as filters). I believe I addressed some of this further up the thread.
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
Mostly struck me as redundant, but that's nothing new here...
Welcome to the forums.
Mostly struck me as redundant, but that's nothing new here...
Welcome to the forums.
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
Huge misconception..
the electronics that the newer power supplies are "full of" are there because the power supply is constantly adjusting its operation to ensure a consistent output voltage. That means that if there is a brief spike or dip the supply will automatically adjust (and it can react WAY faster than you can blink)
Spikes that would normally have to be absorbed by filter capacitors or sags that would have to be made up by draining the caps (in linear power supplies) are actively compensated for.
In fact, at one of my previous jobs designing and testing switching power supplies we actually had a jig that would toggle the input voltage of the supply.
we would run some of the converters off two supplies set to min and max allowable input voltages and use a function generator to toggle back and forth at anywhere from 1-30hz.
When we did so, there was a maximum allowable ripple spec for the output voltage. and that was usually a very tame ripple compared to what a linear supply would do under similar circumstances.
Jason
Huge misconception..
the electronics that the newer power supplies are "full of" are there because the power supply is constantly adjusting its operation to ensure a consistent output voltage. That means that if there is a brief spike or dip the supply will automatically adjust (and it can react WAY faster than you can blink)
Spikes that would normally have to be absorbed by filter capacitors or sags that would have to be made up by draining the caps (in linear power supplies) are actively compensated for.
In fact, at one of my previous jobs designing and testing switching power supplies we actually had a jig that would toggle the input voltage of the supply.
we would run some of the converters off two supplies set to min and max allowable input voltages and use a function generator to toggle back and forth at anywhere from 1-30hz.
When we did so, there was a maximum allowable ripple spec for the output voltage. and that was usually a very tame ripple compared to what a linear supply would do under similar circumstances.
Jason
CyberPower unit; any word of caution?
I found this one for around $90 and I really like the form factor, since it may fit in a doghouse, or at least not need a roadcase
Any specs seems worriesome? Only x32 and possibly computer and monitor will be run off this.
AVR Series - CP825AVRG
I found this one for around $90 and I really like the form factor, since it may fit in a doghouse, or at least not need a roadcase
Any specs seems worriesome? Only x32 and possibly computer and monitor will be run off this. AVR Series - CP825AVRG
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
I don't know if digital console designers make a design effort to deal with temporary power outages, but keeping a central brain powered up, probably uses a small fraction of the total power budget, so smart management of drop-outs could allow the larger console to go dark briefly, while keeping the internal heart beating a little longer to avoid re-boot. You might still get a short drop out, but less offensive than a full boot-up. Depending on the product and your experience a UPS could be cheap insurance. Of course a cheap ups could be flaky insurance and another point of failure, part of life's ongoing IQ test.
JR
A second or two? That is a relatively long time duration for a power supply loaded at rated power, with input power removed. Hold-up time seems independent of technology but a design consideration made for either.
Switching supplies can be made less sensitive to input power, often working world-wide from one design.
I don't know if digital console designers make a design effort to deal with temporary power outages, but keeping a central brain powered up, probably uses a small fraction of the total power budget, so smart management of drop-outs could allow the larger console to go dark briefly, while keeping the internal heart beating a little longer to avoid re-boot. You might still get a short drop out, but less offensive than a full boot-up. Depending on the product and your experience a UPS could be cheap insurance. Of course a cheap ups could be flaky insurance and another point of failure, part of life's ongoing IQ test.
JR
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
A few years back on PSW I was touting the virtues of UPS for digital consoles based on the *observation* that we stopped having issues with mixers when we put them on UPS. So a few weeks ago we were in the shop working on stuff and I got a look at the UPS of days gone by; it also had AVR (which oddly I'd never known). It was a surplus device that we replaced the batteries in, and sent it out after seeing it hold load in the shop. Upon reflection I think the feature that cleared up our issues was the AVR, not the battery supply.
A few years back on PSW I was touting the virtues of UPS for digital consoles based on the *observation* that we stopped having issues with mixers when we put them on UPS. So a few weeks ago we were in the shop working on stuff and I got a look at the UPS of days gone by; it also had AVR (which oddly I'd never known). It was a surplus device that we replaced the batteries in, and sent it out after seeing it hold load in the shop. Upon reflection I think the feature that cleared up our issues was the AVR, not the battery supply.
Re: Hey digital console users don't forget your UPS
Great observation. AVR is a minimal requirement - otherwise most UPS's are "Stand By" - if they don't like the incoming power they switch to battery until it dies and then your dead!
Even better than AVR are "online" or "double conversion" UPS's - where the gear is powered off the batteries at all times by one inverter, and then a second inverter is constantly charging the batteries. I haven't tested some of the newer double conversion unites like the CyberPower units I currently use to see when the charging inverters cut out - but if they were conservative even with a double conversion unit you could end up with the same result as a cheap standby unit - in the dark even though you have "power" coming in. Hmm....
Great observation. AVR is a minimal requirement - otherwise most UPS's are "Stand By" - if they don't like the incoming power they switch to battery until it dies and then your dead!
Even better than AVR are "online" or "double conversion" UPS's - where the gear is powered off the batteries at all times by one inverter, and then a second inverter is constantly charging the batteries. I haven't tested some of the newer double conversion unites like the CyberPower units I currently use to see when the charging inverters cut out - but if they were conservative even with a double conversion unit you could end up with the same result as a cheap standby unit - in the dark even though you have "power" coming in. Hmm....