Re: Meyer Leo
Test and verify, fundamental science
Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Test and verify, fundamental science
Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
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Meyer Leo
- Thread starter Stephen Robertson
- Start date
Re: Meyer Leo
Hi Mike. You need to declare your dealer/manufacturer affiliations on this forum too.
Re: Meyer Leo
Sorry should have tagged that and normally do
Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs
I sponsored Pat Browns first Syn Aud Con Seminar
i get to hang out with Ivan Beaver, Doug Jones, and Tom Danley every day. Who wouldn't wanna be me?!
Sorry should have tagged that and normally do
Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs
I sponsored Pat Browns first Syn Aud Con Seminar
i get to hang out with Ivan Beaver, Doug Jones, and Tom Danley every day. Who wouldn't wanna be me?!
Re: Meyer Leo
I know nothing about rigging. All I know is that the whole array is held up in the air by 4 metal pins about the size of my finger with no safety and that's just scary. I sort of feel that standing in the wings at the edge of a structure and knowing exactly where the exit is and where to run to is a bit safer than the poor guys and girls standing in the middle below all that crap.
My weight comment was purely based on pushing 3 (or 4?) boxes on brand new wheel boards being somewhat of a large effort compared with pushing stacks of vdosc around in a warehouse i don't remember the "ahh fuck these are heavy" feeling (was a few years ago now though).
Maybe the crew here are not so experienced (i know i am not) but there still is a whole bunch of pushing and pulling on stuck pins and bumping the boxes up/down a bit and lifting wheelboards up to the bottom box rather than dropping things directly into place. Surely a "game changer" in rigging would be two guys and a motor putting in zero lifting effort?!
I know nothing about rigging. All I know is that the whole array is held up in the air by 4 metal pins about the size of my finger with no safety and that's just scary. I sort of feel that standing in the wings at the edge of a structure and knowing exactly where the exit is and where to run to is a bit safer than the poor guys and girls standing in the middle below all that crap.
My weight comment was purely based on pushing 3 (or 4?) boxes on brand new wheel boards being somewhat of a large effort compared with pushing stacks of vdosc around in a warehouse i don't remember the "ahh fuck these are heavy" feeling (was a few years ago now though).
Maybe the crew here are not so experienced (i know i am not) but there still is a whole bunch of pushing and pulling on stuck pins and bumping the boxes up/down a bit and lifting wheelboards up to the bottom box rather than dropping things directly into place. Surely a "game changer" in rigging would be two guys and a motor putting in zero lifting effort?!
Re: Meyer Leo
This is BS. Any PE stamped professional system will have at least 7:1 safety factor. Shear strentgh of a single grade 8 1/2" bolt is 20,000lbs+, depending on circumstances, EACH. 4 1/2" bolts would be 80,000lbs. 7:1 safety factor would still be 11,500lbs. If this system falls, it's because an operator screwed up, not because the rigging is inadequate.
This is BS. Any PE stamped professional system will have at least 7:1 safety factor. Shear strentgh of a single grade 8 1/2" bolt is 20,000lbs+, depending on circumstances, EACH. 4 1/2" bolts would be 80,000lbs. 7:1 safety factor would still be 11,500lbs. If this system falls, it's because an operator screwed up, not because the rigging is inadequate.
Re: Meyer Leo
Having flown quite a few Meyer arrays (although I admit not the LEO)... the rigging is plenty safe. If you are going to worry, worry about stuff that really is unsafe.
The safety on the pins is the spring loaded "balls" on the end of the pin. You have to push the toggle on the pin in order to pull the pin out.
"Pushing and pulling on stuck pins" means that there is still load on the box you are trying to unpin and you need to stop and look at what is happening.
Lifting the wheelboards is a bit more effort, but it saves a lot of possible guillotine action when the bootom box is not perfectly flat and the front lands on the wheelboard first.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming....
Having flown quite a few Meyer arrays (although I admit not the LEO)... the rigging is plenty safe. If you are going to worry, worry about stuff that really is unsafe.
The safety on the pins is the spring loaded "balls" on the end of the pin. You have to push the toggle on the pin in order to pull the pin out.
"Pushing and pulling on stuck pins" means that there is still load on the box you are trying to unpin and you need to stop and look at what is happening.
Lifting the wheelboards is a bit more effort, but it saves a lot of possible guillotine action when the bootom box is not perfectly flat and the front lands on the wheelboard first.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming....
Re: Meyer Leo
I have vented my fair share on various forums about Meyer over the years. I really have issues with their specs, I really can't stand the Meyer only fan-boys, I think there are other options that offer better value. I loathe their Bose like attempts to "re-brand" simple ideas as their own (eg: 1100-LFC)
But I have to say, I heard Leo at Delunafest and it sounded damn good. At 800' where my stage was it was no good but I am sure it was set up to throw half that. At 300' it sounded excellent..... As long as the wind was not blowing.
~~:smile: The 1100-LFC were just kinda meh. Nothing special there
The other big stage was Milo, they sounded surprisingly similar. Not sure what the game change part is if it does the same thing as their rig released 10 years ago.
The third smaller stage was Lang's 730/Danley rig, which sounded every bit as good as the Meyer rigs, although obviously on a smaller scale.
This talk of this rig or any other from a major player being an unsafe design is silly and reckless. The humans involved in rigging are almost always the weak link not the hardware. (No disrespect my rigger buddies
I have vented my fair share on various forums about Meyer over the years. I really have issues with their specs, I really can't stand the Meyer only fan-boys, I think there are other options that offer better value. I loathe their Bose like attempts to "re-brand" simple ideas as their own (eg: 1100-LFC)
But I have to say, I heard Leo at Delunafest and it sounded damn good. At 800' where my stage was it was no good but I am sure it was set up to throw half that. At 300' it sounded excellent..... As long as the wind was not blowing.
~~:smile: The 1100-LFC were just kinda meh. Nothing special thereThe other big stage was Milo, they sounded surprisingly similar. Not sure what the game change part is if it does the same thing as their rig released 10 years ago.
The third smaller stage was Lang's 730/Danley rig, which sounded every bit as good as the Meyer rigs, although obviously on a smaller scale.
This talk of this rig or any other from a major player being an unsafe design is silly and reckless. The humans involved in rigging are almost always the weak link not the hardware. (No disrespect my rigger buddies
Re: Meyer Leo
What I mean, is that from a lay-persons perspective the rigging seems no different from other systems and is still kind of scary for me.
I guess a 'game changer' in rigging would be a system which is really different from other systems and inspires confidence in the untrained.
I guess a 'game changer' in sound would be to fix the live sound harsh HF.
And I guess a 'game changer' in weight would be magical magnets and amplifiers which have no mass!
I'm not saying their system is unsafe. It is not BS that the whole thing is held up with 4 pins (because I've seen it) and it is not BS that rigging systems and temporary structures scare me because, as I said, I have no rigging training and hear about all these horror stories of stage collapses almost every month.
What I mean, is that from a lay-persons perspective the rigging seems no different from other systems and is still kind of scary for me.
I guess a 'game changer' in rigging would be a system which is really different from other systems and inspires confidence in the untrained.
I guess a 'game changer' in sound would be to fix the live sound harsh HF.
And I guess a 'game changer' in weight would be magical magnets and amplifiers which have no mass!
Re: Meyer Leo
I tend to agree re the re-branding and overstatements. And I think the earlier "game changer" comment is a stretch.
I'll admit I haven't heard them and I have no doubt they sound very good, but just looking over the spec sheets, there are a number of things that stand out as NOT game changing:
- a non-tapering cabinet which leaves gaps between the elements - yes I'm aware v-dosc;
- rigging that potrudes from the sides and is aesthetically busy - note the wide side bars added to protect the rigging for transport and that double as handles. Other manufacturers have done a nice job of recessing everything;
- 4 point rigging - whereas some manufacturers have simplified to 3 points;
- a 2-way cabinet claiming long throw, rather than 3-way (or 4) for potentially clearer mid-range and less strain on the HF drivers. (Ok, some may argue this is game changing if the 2-way drivers are a significant step forward.)
I tend to agree re the re-branding and overstatements. And I think the earlier "game changer" comment is a stretch.
I'll admit I haven't heard them and I have no doubt they sound very good, but just looking over the spec sheets, there are a number of things that stand out as NOT game changing:
- a non-tapering cabinet which leaves gaps between the elements - yes I'm aware v-dosc;
- rigging that potrudes from the sides and is aesthetically busy - note the wide side bars added to protect the rigging for transport and that double as handles. Other manufacturers have done a nice job of recessing everything;
- 4 point rigging - whereas some manufacturers have simplified to 3 points;
- a 2-way cabinet claiming long throw, rather than 3-way (or 4) for potentially clearer mid-range and less strain on the HF drivers. (Ok, some may argue this is game changing if the 2-way drivers are a significant step forward.)
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Re: Meyer Leo
I heard the Leo rig at a show at Red Rocks. Bassnectar was the headliner, so they had 32 of the dual 18s (plus 12 rear firing), and while the spls were high, Meyer distinctly is weak on low end. It is definitely a pro system, yes, but the Meyer-only idiots push it on every thing it isn't made for. If I recall it was 130db at FOH, yet it most reminded me of an old yamaha "club" subwoofer, the fuzzy kind that usually smell like cat piss.
I heard the Leo rig at a show at Red Rocks. Bassnectar was the headliner, so they had 32 of the dual 18s (plus 12 rear firing), and while the spls were high, Meyer distinctly is weak on low end. It is definitely a pro system, yes, but the Meyer-only idiots push it on every thing it isn't made for. If I recall it was 130db at FOH, yet it most reminded me of an old yamaha "club" subwoofer, the fuzzy kind that usually smell like cat piss.
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Re: Meyer Leo
http://soundforums.net/hub/attachments/7231d1371762579-bassnectar_red_rock_033_hi.jpg.att
It's only speculation but the cardioid arrangement may well explain why you didn't like the bass.
http://soundforums.net/hub/attachments/7231d1371762579-bassnectar_red_rock_033_hi.jpg.att
It's only speculation but the cardioid arrangement may well explain why you didn't like the bass.
Re: Meyer Leo
What I don't understand about this picture: is the main PA in its final position? At least the lowest 4 cabinets seem a little bit strange to me, or are there listeners supposed to lay down on stage?
What I don't understand about this picture: is the main PA in its final position? At least the lowest 4 cabinets seem a little bit strange to me, or are there listeners supposed to lay down on stage?
Re: Meyer Leo
Definitely possible. Red Rocks is also a bit of an unusual venue. That said, I haven't ever heard a Meyer sub that I particularly liked, and I've heard Meyer systems in about 50 - 60 venues, and at 200 - 250 different shows / settings. They seem to try to equate airy-loud with good. The sub comes off to me as sterile and dry. It lacks any richness, and sounds (natively) like it is always compressed and distant.
Definitely possible. Red Rocks is also a bit of an unusual venue. That said, I haven't ever heard a Meyer sub that I particularly liked, and I've heard Meyer systems in about 50 - 60 venues, and at 200 - 250 different shows / settings. They seem to try to equate airy-loud with good. The sub comes off to me as sterile and dry. It lacks any richness, and sounds (natively) like it is always compressed and distant.
Re: Meyer Leo
Maybe they used the bottom cabinets as an extra weight to help tilt the array up? You need some extreme uptilt in that place, so... Of course, that would mean they would be muted...
I don't know, I wasn't there, I just made the same observation, and this sprang to mind.
What I don't understand about this picture: is the main PA in its final position? At least the lowest 4 cabinets seem a little bit strange to me, or are there listeners supposed to lay down on stage?
Maybe they used the bottom cabinets as an extra weight to help tilt the array up? You need some extreme uptilt in that place, so... Of course, that would mean they would be muted...
I don't know, I wasn't there, I just made the same observation, and this sprang to mind.
Re: Meyer Leo
Agreed
I have never been to that venue but wonder- is the directional bass really important there? I suspect there is not a neighborhood behind the stage? Maybe some other reason?
Unless there is a REAL reason to do directional bass-better sound out front can be achieved by just stacking the cabinet normally (all facing forward).
I wonder how many people do directional bass-just because they think it is cool or "what they say or read" on a forum? Yet they don't realize what other issues they are causing.
With audio-simple is better. Complexity comes at a price-and it is performance. Unless there is a REAL reason to "steer" the sound-it is better to just "let it be".
ANYTIME you start to add any sort of cancellation-the sound quality is going to drop. Sound likes a nice SINGLE source without interference-for maximum clarity/quality. Just like a single pebble in a pond-it will produce the smoothest set of ripples. No matter how many other pebbles or when you drop them-the resultant ripples will not be as smooth-young grasshopper----------------------
Agreed
I have never been to that venue but wonder- is the directional bass really important there? I suspect there is not a neighborhood behind the stage? Maybe some other reason?
Unless there is a REAL reason to do directional bass-better sound out front can be achieved by just stacking the cabinet normally (all facing forward).
I wonder how many people do directional bass-just because they think it is cool or "what they say or read" on a forum? Yet they don't realize what other issues they are causing.
With audio-simple is better. Complexity comes at a price-and it is performance. Unless there is a REAL reason to "steer" the sound-it is better to just "let it be".
ANYTIME you start to add any sort of cancellation-the sound quality is going to drop. Sound likes a nice SINGLE source without interference-for maximum clarity/quality. Just like a single pebble in a pond-it will produce the smoothest set of ripples. No matter how many other pebbles or when you drop them-the resultant ripples will not be as smooth-young grasshopper----------------------
Re: Meyer Leo
Red Rocks stage faces West, most of the populated area are East, more directional bass would probably reduce the level from where most of the complainers would be.
I find it interesting that John Klein would regard 130 dB at FOH as "distinctly weak on low end", perhaps that is in comparison to the "fine" performance of 2011 :^).
Bassnectar was fined $100,000.00 for violation of the noise ordinance law for their 2011 Red Rocks performance.
Red Rocks stage faces West, most of the populated area are East, more directional bass would probably reduce the level from where most of the complainers would be.
I find it interesting that John Klein would regard 130 dB at FOH as "distinctly weak on low end", perhaps that is in comparison to the "fine" performance of 2011 :^).
Re: Meyer Leo
I have never been there-so have no idea what may be around-thanks for the insight.
Since there was a noise ordinance with such high fines-you would "think" somebody would be monitoring the levels and say "OK we are at the edge"-unless of course the "people in charge-whoever that is" simply don't care and maybe they were LOOKING to be fined-kinda like going to jail is "street credit" for rappers-----------------
I did an EDM show a couple of years ago in which the venue owner was insisting that we turn it up. I had plenty of PA headroom left-and the artists and FOH engineers were totally happy with the levels and did NOT want to turn it up any more.
The owner WANTED to go to jail that night!!!!!!!!!!! WHY? Because he wanted his venue to make the papers for being so loud-so as to bring some "advertisement" to them. Problem was that this as a 1 time event and the house system was MUCH less capable than what I brought. So future events would not have the same "impact".
And that is EXACTLY what is missing from most information given in so many posts. Details. It makes a difference for people who are not familiar with the particulars of the topic at hand.
I have never been there-so have no idea what may be around-thanks for the insight.
Since there was a noise ordinance with such high fines-you would "think" somebody would be monitoring the levels and say "OK we are at the edge"-unless of course the "people in charge-whoever that is" simply don't care and maybe they were LOOKING to be fined-kinda like going to jail is "street credit" for rappers-----------------
I did an EDM show a couple of years ago in which the venue owner was insisting that we turn it up. I had plenty of PA headroom left-and the artists and FOH engineers were totally happy with the levels and did NOT want to turn it up any more.
The owner WANTED to go to jail that night!!!!!!!!!!! WHY? Because he wanted his venue to make the papers for being so loud-so as to bring some "advertisement" to them. Problem was that this as a 1 time event and the house system was MUCH less capable than what I brought. So future events would not have the same "impact".
Re: Meyer Leo
Here is a Meyer commercial profiling that Bassnectar rig at Red Rocks
Behind the Scenes on Bassnectar Tour: Sounds and Sights - YouTube
Here is a Meyer commercial profiling that Bassnectar rig at Red Rocks
Behind the Scenes on Bassnectar Tour: Sounds and Sights - YouTube
Re: Meyer Leo
I guess the lower cabinet ARE for the guys sitting next to the stage--------------------What I don't understand about this picture: is the main PA in its final position? At least the lowest 4 cabinets seem a little bit strange to me, or are there listeners supposed to lay down on stage?
