Presonus 32.4.2Al

Most of my bands are "nonstandard". The last I toured with had 6 people who played 14 different instruments in a typical set with 5 of the 6 taking the vocal lead on at least one song.

It still doesn't work out to more than a couple different cues per song. I did it for decades without digital. We developed a bunch of apparently forgotten skills to make due.

And if I get to the point where I need more changes per band/song than I can easily remember I am going to spec a SC48 or better, not an X32.

Like I said previously in the thread, ask me again in 3-5 years, then my perception may have changed.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Silas Pradetto said:
Right, you then have to reposition the faders and guess where the aux masters and input gains were. In reality, there's no way you'll ever be able to recall the scene and have it exactly the same as last time.
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We still have to do a sound check. I don't guess the gains, and hit the floor running with the mix that was saved last time. Even in the same room, things change. Different amp? New guitar? New skins? Different cymbal. The recall is just a starting point. I zero the monitor mix each time as well.

Even if it had recallable gains I wouldn't expect to hit load and then giver cold.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

This may very well be common knowledge, but the new 32 channel AI Studio live is due out in Q3 According to my Rep.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Declan Slater said:
This may very well be common knowledge, but the new 32 channel AI Studio live is due out in Q3 According to my Rep.
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You mean the one that was supposed to be available now? For which Guitar Center is currently noting "Usually ships in 2-3 weeks" and taking orders? The same one that other retailers showed, and some still show, with April/May availability? The one that a January response from a PreSonus rep on their own forum stated "They should be shipping by April." (PreSonus seems to no longer be responding to questions about availability in that thread). The one with StudioLive 32.4.2 Official Release Video | PreSonus Blog
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Wow.. Yeah, that's what he told me anyway.. Well.. You never do know until the product is actually in your hands, right? Maybe they'll surprise us... (In a good way, I hope)

Brad Weber said:
You mean the one that was supposed to be available now? For which Guitar Center is currently noting "Usually ships in 2-3 weeks" and taking orders? The same one that other retailers showed, and some still show, with April/May availability? The one that a January response from a PreSonus rep on their own forum stated "They should be shipping by April." (PreSonus seems to no longer be responding to questions about availability in that thread). The one with StudioLive 32.4.2 Official Release Video | PreSonus Blog
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Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

I just came across the new SoundCraft Expression line of boards. The MAP on that board is $3499, so right in the same price as the Presonus 32.4.2. It passes the 'not behringer' test for those that are set against that. It's got motorized faders, it's got expandability to mix up to 66 channels, it can have a digital snake, etc, etc. All the stuff that the Presonus is missing. The only thing the Presonus offers is 32 sliders. The Soundcraft, for some unknown reason only has 30 faders, meaning to use all 32, you have to have at least 2 on the 2nd page. Not the end of the world, and better than the 16 on the Behringer.

The price point of the Soundcraft being the same as the Presonus really puts another dagger in that product as being a lesser value. I don't see it becoming too popular.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Brian jojade said:
I just came across the new SoundCraft Expression line of boards. The MAP on that board is $3499, so right in the same price as the Presonus 32.4.2. It passes the 'not behringer' test for those that are set against that. It's got motorized faders, it's got expandability to mix up to 66 channels, it can have a digital snake, etc, etc. All the stuff that the Presonus is missing. The only thing the Presonus offers is 32 sliders. The Soundcraft, for some unknown reason only has 30 faders, meaning to use all 32, you have to have at least 2 on the 2nd page. Not the end of the world, and better than the 16 on the Behringer.

The price point of the Soundcraft being the same as the Presonus really puts another dagger in that product as being a lesser value. I don't see it becoming too popular.
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Reports say that Soundcraft has a few bugs to sort out, but assuming they do that it could be a winner. I'm talking to our rep about a demo in the near future.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Yeah, I've read a few reports of bugs with the system. Surprisingly, there are quite a few more reported major issues with that console than reported with the Behringer product. Go figure. I've used the SI compact before, and it's a great console, but the price was almost 3X as much. From what I've read, the new board is even more powerful and less expensive. Go figure.
 
Brian jojade said:
Yeah, I've read a few reports of bugs with the system. Surprisingly, there are quite a few more reported major issues with that console than reported with the Behringer product. Go figure. I've used the SI compact before, and it's a great console, but the price was almost 3X as much. From what I've read, the new board is even more powerful and less expensive. Go figure.
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Yeah, as an Si Compact user I was a little upset. If they could make good profit margins charging 1/3 less, they were not pricing fair in the first place.

I wouldn't worry about any glitches, though, their software team is typically quite responsive in my humble experience.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Samuel Rees said:
Yeah, as an Si Compact user I was a little upset. If they could make good profit margins charging 1/3 less, they were not pricing fair in the first place.

I wouldn't worry about any glitches, though, their software team is typically quite responsive in my humble experience.
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I find it interesting that SoundCraft gets a "by" simply by being SoundCraft. Had Behringer had similiar issues on release of the X32, the shouts would have gone out far and wide.

I get it though. SoundCraft has a reputation for making good quality mixers while Behringer has the reputation for selling cheep crap that breaks (I have had one of their cheep mixers break on me too).

I am not saying that the respective reputations are not well deserved, only that SoundCraft can release a product that locks up, and has multiple critical bugs (from what I have read), and we all say "That's OK, they will fix it soon .... and then it will be a great product". With Behringer, I have read several posts that state "Sure it sounds great, and has been doing well for 6 months, but I won't buy one for 5 years).

As for the margins, you charge what the market will bear, not what the product costs you to make. That is simply smart business.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Declan Slater said:
Seems that the link to the video you posted above gives a 404 error now...
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Exactly the point, I have a feeling that either the videos deleted included references to the originally announced Q1 to April releases for the AI products or were seen to suggest the products were released and thus have been taken down. The PreSonus forums does still have a thread with posts back in January and February from a PreSonus Product Manager stating April availability for both the AI mixer and speakers. Interestingly, the Soundcraft Si Compact and Behringer X32 also ended up actually being available months later than initially announced, it seems like PreSonus either didn't learn from those or figured that made it okay for them to do the same.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Scott Bolt said:
I am not saying that the respective reputations are not well deserved, only that SoundCraft can release a product that locks up, and has multiple critical bugs (from what I have read), and we all say "That's OK, they will fix it soon .... and then it will be a great product". With Behringer, I have read several posts that state "Sure it sounds great, and has been doing well for 6 months, but I won't buy one for 5 years).
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In the case of Soundcraft, they have a reputation of building consoles that last. Their analog desks have been largely free of infant mortality issues or hardware problems. Behringer's reputation is pretty much as you state. I don't see a lot of deferential treatment for Soundcraft that was not accorded to Behringer. The problems experienced with the early run(s) of the X32 were not met with pitchforks and torches and neither are the issues with the Compact. If anything, the X32 as given a wider berth than I anticipated.

I disagree that Soundcraft got a free pass.... I think the reason you haven't heard a great cryout is because they *may* have sold a couple thousand Compacts to Behringer's 30,000 X32.

YMMV
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Tim McCulloch said:
In the case of Soundcraft, they have a reputation of building consoles that last. Their analog desks have been largely free of infant mortality issues or hardware problems. Behringer's reputation is pretty much as you state. I don't see a lot of deferential treatment for Soundcraft that was not accorded to Behringer. The problems experienced with the early run(s) of the X32 were not met with pitchforks and torches and neither are the issues with the Compact. If anything, the X32 as given a wider berth than I anticipated.

I disagree that Soundcraft got a free pass.... I think the reason you haven't heard a great cryout is because they *may* have sold a couple thousand Compacts to Behringer's 30,000 X32.

YMMV
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Hi Tim,

I recently did a couple of modifications to my MixWiz2, and was pretty amazed to find that in the mid 90's A&H were using single sided PCB's with through-hole parts. While my MixWiz has been completely solid since I bought it (also in the 90's), the engineering involved would rank up there with "bear skins and cave knives" compared to a digital mixer.

The skill set needed to engineer a good digital mixer is night-and-day different than that needed to create a great analog board. In-fact, I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of work on a digital board is the firmware and DSP algorithms. The A/D, D/A, physical inputs/outputs are off-the-shelf stuff with plenty of examples out in the wild on how to use them successfully.

In a previous thread somewhere I was arguing that the pre-amp design is trivial and easy to do. The idea that "MIDAS" designed pre's are any better than say A&H pre's is kind of silly. The sound of a digital mixer is almost entirely determined by firmware and DSP.

On your other point, the "great cryout" may indeed be due to lower volumes. I can't imagine how someone would not notice the kinds of issues I have read about on the Si .... and they seem to be easy to reproduce.

I remember that Presonus had some issues early on (actually I still hear about lockups now and then), but eventually got a decent reputation for reliability ..... from most users.

I wonder if the SL32.4.2AI isn't a re-write of major portions of their code in addition to being a full 32 channel mixer offering. That would account for the delay.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Scott Bolt said:
Hi Tim,

I recently did a couple of modifications to my MixWiz2, and was pretty amazed to find that in the mid 90's A&H were using single sided PCB's with through-hole parts. While my MixWiz has been completely solid since I bought it (also in the 90's), the engineering involved would rank up there with "bear skins and cave knives" compared to a digital mixer.
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:) I'm shocked.
The skill set needed to engineer a good digital mixer is night-and-day different than that needed to create a great analog board. In-fact, I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of work on a digital board is the firmware and DSP algorithms. The A/D, D/A, physical inputs/outputs are off-the-shelf stuff with plenty of examples out in the wild on how to use them successfully.
Click to expand...
Debatable whether it is quite that simple. Console design involves ergonomics and human factors that still need to be executed either using analog or digital technology. Skill in digital technology does not automatically translate into a merchantable digital console. Simple in concept, just like power amps, but execution of those simple concepts matters.
In a previous thread somewhere I was arguing that the pre-amp design is trivial and easy to do. The idea that "MIDAS" designed pre's are any better than say A&H pre's is kind of silly. The sound of a digital mixer is almost entirely determined by firmware and DSP.
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I'm probably repeating myself. The Midas had a funny soft limiter built in so that is a special case. I suspect most of the Behringer arm waving is pure marketing feeding superstitious customer thinking that there are larger differences between SOTA preamps than exist in practice. Mic preamp design today if you are talking about plugging in some off the shelf IC is perhaps trivial, because engineers at the IC company have done the heavy lifting for you.
On your other point, the "great cryout" may indeed be due to lower volumes. I can't imagine how someone would not notice the kinds of issues I have read about on the Si .... and they seem to be easy to reproduce.
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who knows? Brand management matters in the margin.
I remember that Presonus had some issues early on (actually I still hear about lockups now and then), but eventually got a decent reputation for reliability ..... from most users.

I wonder if the SL32.4.2AI isn't a re-write of major portions of their code in addition to being a full 32 channel mixer offering. That would account for the delay.
Click to expand...

Software is never finished.

JR
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

John Roberts said:
:) I'm shocked.

Debatable whether it is quite that simple. Console design involves ergonomics and human factors that still need to be executed either using analog or digital technology. Skill in digital technology does not automatically translate into a merchantable digital console. Simple in concept, just like power amps, but execution of those simple concepts matters.
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I do software, firmware, hardware design, and FPGA design for a living (actually I manage it now vs doing ;) ). The hardware portion of a project is critical with zero room for defects (since a defect here would mean a recall of the product to correct) ; however, as far as the work effort is concerned, hardware is the easy part. Architecting a good firmware and FPGA design which is flexible, easy to maintain, and easy to expand and/or add features to is where the vast majority of IP is. It is also important that the soft design is lean and requires as little resources as possible so that you can do more with less hardware.

I'm probably repeating myself. The Midas had a funny soft limiter built in so that is a special case. I suspect most of the Behringer arm waving is pure marketing feeding superstitious customer thinking that there are larger differences between SOTA preamps than exist in practice. Mic preamp design today if you are talking about plugging in some off the shelf IC is perhaps trivial, because engineers at the IC company have done the heavy lifting for you.
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I agree (and am also probably repeating myself). That is OK though. As I stated, pre-amps, A/D converters, D/A converters, etc is not the IP (Intellectual Property) that is a good differentiator today in digital mixers. The firmware, interface, and DSP really are.

I will grant you that the work-flow and usability of the UI is a huge product differentiator .... and one that requires a huge experience base to get correct. I would argue that most engineers make poor work-flow designers ..... unless they happen to be expert users of the devices they design.... which is quite rare.

Software is never finished.
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Very true.
 
Re: Presonus 32.4.2Al

Why does every mixer discussion have to turn into a sales pitch for the X32? We've heard it all! Did you read the title of this thread?
 
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