Money $$$$$
- Thread starter JP Huff
- Start date
Re: Money $$$$$
OTOH if running a small business or working for a company owned by a single individual they will often look at company purchases as if spending their own money, because they are. So I would refine Brian's advice to try to sell to large companies that may be more disconnected from spending responsibly.
A variant or corollary to work effort needing to create value, is the multiplier effect. Some types of work do not create sellable product but do create an intangible value, like cleaning bathrooms. This would be 1:0 work where 1 hour of work does not create sellable goods but one unit of service value. The next kind of work is 1:1 where a factory worker sits on a production line and creates an hours worth of widgets an hour. To make more money means spending more hours at 1:1 tasks. Next are higher multiplier jobs 1:X like managing other workers. One hour of management has the capability to create more than one hour of output. Another high multiplier task is designing gear, but this is non-linear with hits and misses, just like writing a hit song is a high multiplier task, easier said than done. Of course there are exceptions to 1:0 tasks being low pay, brain surgeons are arguably a service job but well compensated.
A generality about making more money in a large organization is to be close to the money. In a large corporation there are two power centers involving money. Money coming in and money going out. In all cases this gross money flow through a corporation could be 10x the profit. Money coming in is the work of the sales organization. Money flowing out is the work of purchasing departments. Just like congress spending tax dollars, purchasing agents gain power and influence from the money they spend.
Of course at the end of the day it depends on the individual, these are just generalities.
JR
PS: minimum wage rules are the exact opposite of allowing free market forces to determine wages. Politicians like to believe they can get more pay for low level workers by waving their legislative wand. A recent situation in Wash DC reveals the folly in believing that. 24 hours after Walmart warned the council that it could affect their expansion plans in the region, the council ruled that large retailers (like Walmart) would have to pay workers a 50% premium over the current minimum wage. Walmart cancelled plans for a few stores and several hundred jobs. This will no doubt lead to worse economic conditions for citizens, while DC is an interesting paradox with uber-wealthy living off the government teat side by side with high unemployment and low wages. The much discussed wealth gap is not something that can be fixed with legislation. If anything government can help educate unemployed workers to perform higher skilled tasks. When they can create more wealth they can get paid more.
This is a variant on simple supply and demand. If too many people want to do a job for little or no pay, there is no benefit from paying more. While there are plenty of undesirable jobs that do not pay well, just because they are undesirable. Again supply and demand enters if the employer can not find anybody to shovel the sh__, they may pay a premium to get the job accomplished. Sometimes this will encourage robots/automation to handle most undesirable tasks.
This is an interesting point about how people make economic decisions. When spending our own money we are more responsible about wasteful or overly generous spending decisions. This is one dominant criticism of how healthcare spending decisions are made. If the individual made personal healthcare spending decisions, like they were spending their own money, instead of insurance company or government money our healthcare spending would be significantly reduced by the negative feedback of first person self-interest at work. ( This is why insurance companies use added co-pay charges to try to discourage customers from using more expensive name brand drugs, and drug companies simultaneously try to provide credits to diminish the negative feedback effect of co-pays. )
OTOH if running a small business or working for a company owned by a single individual they will often look at company purchases as if spending their own money, because they are. So I would refine Brian's advice to try to sell to large companies that may be more disconnected from spending responsibly.
Working in live sound is a little like running away to join the circus.
There are other generalities about making money... In small companies and better managed large companies your work effort must create value to support your pay. In the short term, and in larger poorly managed companies you can beat the system by managing your boss, but in the average if the work doesn't create more value than pay the business will not succeed.
A variant or corollary to work effort needing to create value, is the multiplier effect. Some types of work do not create sellable product but do create an intangible value, like cleaning bathrooms. This would be 1:0 work where 1 hour of work does not create sellable goods but one unit of service value. The next kind of work is 1:1 where a factory worker sits on a production line and creates an hours worth of widgets an hour. To make more money means spending more hours at 1:1 tasks. Next are higher multiplier jobs 1:X like managing other workers. One hour of management has the capability to create more than one hour of output. Another high multiplier task is designing gear, but this is non-linear with hits and misses, just like writing a hit song is a high multiplier task, easier said than done. Of course there are exceptions to 1:0 tasks being low pay, brain surgeons are arguably a service job but well compensated.
A generality about making more money in a large organization is to be close to the money. In a large corporation there are two power centers involving money. Money coming in and money going out. In all cases this gross money flow through a corporation could be 10x the profit. Money coming in is the work of the sales organization. Money flowing out is the work of purchasing departments. Just like congress spending tax dollars, purchasing agents gain power and influence from the money they spend.
Of course at the end of the day it depends on the individual, these are just generalities.
JR
PS: minimum wage rules are the exact opposite of allowing free market forces to determine wages. Politicians like to believe they can get more pay for low level workers by waving their legislative wand. A recent situation in Wash DC reveals the folly in believing that. 24 hours after Walmart warned the council that it could affect their expansion plans in the region, the council ruled that large retailers (like Walmart) would have to pay workers a 50% premium over the current minimum wage. Walmart cancelled plans for a few stores and several hundred jobs. This will no doubt lead to worse economic conditions for citizens, while DC is an interesting paradox with uber-wealthy living off the government teat side by side with high unemployment and low wages. The much discussed wealth gap is not something that can be fixed with legislation. If anything government can help educate unemployed workers to perform higher skilled tasks. When they can create more wealth they can get paid more.
Re: Money $$$$$
JR, as someone who lives in the DC area, you need to re-think your views on it. For the large part, most of the higher wealth people do not live in DC itself, but rather outside of the city in the suburbs. Simply put, this means that their taxes don't go to DC. On the other hand, the entirety of DC is built off of the Government existing there; at least 4 people in my family have made part of their livings working for the government over the course of their lives. And before you try it- don't harp on the government workers. Many of them are hard working, clear headed people with just as much interest in the government as the rest of us. Also, many government agencies in the city do offer training programs or entry-level positions for Citizens of the United States.
JR, as someone who lives in the DC area, you need to re-think your views on it. For the large part, most of the higher wealth people do not live in DC itself, but rather outside of the city in the suburbs. Simply put, this means that their taxes don't go to DC. On the other hand, the entirety of DC is built off of the Government existing there; at least 4 people in my family have made part of their livings working for the government over the course of their lives. And before you try it- don't harp on the government workers. Many of them are hard working, clear headed people with just as much interest in the government as the rest of us. Also, many government agencies in the city do offer training programs or entry-level positions for Citizens of the United States.
Re: Money $$$$$
When business spends large amounts of money they are disciplined by their corporate self-interest to be rigorous in checking for fraud. The government not only has a poor track record for preventing fraud, but has openly admitted they do not have the capability to check applicants for some of the new give away programs associated with the heath care law. Judging by our recent experience with the free cell phones (many people took multiple sell-phones). I don't expect this to be low fraud.
As I have posted before i wouldn't mind hiring more government workers who's only job is rooting out fraud. They could be paid for out of the fraudulent payments they recovered. If at some distant future date they run out of fraud to recapture, we can throw them a great retirement party, but I am not holding my breath for that date coming soon. It is the nature of large give away programs, always was and always will be.
Nothing personal I'm sure there are many honest people in any large group.
JR
I'm not sure what tax base has to do with minimum wage. I already mentioned the paradoxical juxtaposition of poor Wash DC being where so much money changes hands.
Since you bring up the subject this is not so much about government workers having bad intentions, as I also previously stated it is simple human nature to be less careful about spending other peoples money.
When business spends large amounts of money they are disciplined by their corporate self-interest to be rigorous in checking for fraud. The government not only has a poor track record for preventing fraud, but has openly admitted they do not have the capability to check applicants for some of the new give away programs associated with the heath care law. Judging by our recent experience with the free cell phones (many people took multiple sell-phones). I don't expect this to be low fraud.
As I have posted before i wouldn't mind hiring more government workers who's only job is rooting out fraud. They could be paid for out of the fraudulent payments they recovered. If at some distant future date they run out of fraud to recapture, we can throw them a great retirement party, but I am not holding my breath for that date coming soon. It is the nature of large give away programs, always was and always will be.
Nothing personal I'm sure there are many honest people in any large group.
JR
Re: Money $$$$$
*UPDATE ON THE PAY*
My check was allegedly stolen from the post office and the owner has an investigation going on but doesn't know when he can get us our money. I pose this question now, fact or crap?
*UPDATE ON THE PAY*
My check was allegedly stolen from the post office and the owner has an investigation going on but doesn't know when he can get us our money. I pose this question now, fact or crap?
Re: Money $$$$$
I call complete crap. If the check was stolen from the post office, was it cashed? And by who? If it wasn't cashed, it's as simple as calling the bank and stopping payment, and then re-issuing a check.
You're getting the run-around.
I call complete crap. If the check was stolen from the post office, was it cashed? And by who? If it wasn't cashed, it's as simple as calling the bank and stopping payment, and then re-issuing a check.
You're getting the run-around.
Re: Money $$$$$
E-mail the guy with an invoice.
On the invoice state that payment within 10 days of the date on the invoice will qualify for a 15% discount.
Failure to pay within 30 days and the price goes up by 20% and then 10% for every 30 days thereafter.
If your guy is interested in saving money, he'll pay up early.
OK, you'll only get 85% of what you wanted, but at the moment, that's a lot more than you've got out of him so far.
Do you have a PayPal account?
Have him send you the money that way. It can't get lost then.
The lost check story sounds BS. Next up he'll be telling you he spilled coffee on it, or that the dog ate it.
Tell him to cancel the check, then tell him to send a new one for $5 less and tell him to send it registered this time.
Then get him to send you the barcode number of the consignment so that you can track it.
Yes it's less, but it's still more than you've got at the moment.
Karl.
E-mail the guy with an invoice.
On the invoice state that payment within 10 days of the date on the invoice will qualify for a 15% discount.
Failure to pay within 30 days and the price goes up by 20% and then 10% for every 30 days thereafter.
If your guy is interested in saving money, he'll pay up early.
OK, you'll only get 85% of what you wanted, but at the moment, that's a lot more than you've got out of him so far.
Do you have a PayPal account?
Have him send you the money that way. It can't get lost then.
The lost check story sounds BS. Next up he'll be telling you he spilled coffee on it, or that the dog ate it.
Tell him to cancel the check, then tell him to send a new one for $5 less and tell him to send it registered this time.
Then get him to send you the barcode number of the consignment so that you can track it.
Yes it's less, but it's still more than you've got at the moment.
Karl.
Re: Money $$$$$
From what I read previously, you went and sat in his office for payment ? Go sit again and demand cash.
From what I read previously, you went and sat in his office for payment ? Go sit again and demand cash.
Re: Money $$$$$
How does he know? even if he sent it using a method with a tracking number, calling it "stolen" would be premature at best.. and who would pay for that service when he already knows you're willing to come to his office for it?
He's stalling..
Jason
How does he know? even if he sent it using a method with a tracking number, calling it "stolen" would be premature at best.. and who would pay for that service when he already knows you're willing to come to his office for it?
He's stalling..
Jason
Re: Money $$$$$
Allegedly it was cashed and not by us, thats how it was reported "stolen". He claims he doesn't know how quickly he can get the money out, but with a company his size, a check for $300 at minimum shouldn't be to hard.
Allegedly it was cashed and not by us, thats how it was reported "stolen". He claims he doesn't know how quickly he can get the money out, but with a company his size, a check for $300 at minimum shouldn't be to hard.
Re: Money $$$$$
Stolen from the post office ?? (BS)
Ask him to give you the check number and date it was issued.
He is probably lying, because he is getting away with it.
The idea of terms with escalating interest is interesting, but changing the terms of the deal after the fact is not right. The deal he thinks he negotiated doesn't involve paying you at all. :-(
Good luck but this may just be an expensive lesson. Unless he has reason to hire you for another job, he has little motivation to pay you for the last one.
Be the squeaky wheel. If he claims he sent a check that didn't arrive, have him stop payment on the original check, re-issue a new payment and send it with a tracking signature required etc. Be willing to allow a few $$ for the costs to do this.
At some point he may tire of lying to you and pay you to leave him alone. Mailing a formal invoice that documents the work performed, date, and pay negotiated will be useful for small claims court.
JR
Stolen from the post office ?? (BS)
Ask him to give you the check number and date it was issued.
He is probably lying, because he is getting away with it.
The idea of terms with escalating interest is interesting, but changing the terms of the deal after the fact is not right. The deal he thinks he negotiated doesn't involve paying you at all. :-(
Good luck but this may just be an expensive lesson. Unless he has reason to hire you for another job, he has little motivation to pay you for the last one.
Be the squeaky wheel. If he claims he sent a check that didn't arrive, have him stop payment on the original check, re-issue a new payment and send it with a tracking signature required etc. Be willing to allow a few $$ for the costs to do this.
At some point he may tire of lying to you and pay you to leave him alone. Mailing a formal invoice that documents the work performed, date, and pay negotiated will be useful for small claims court.
JR
Re: Money $$$$$
It is crap. This is a combination of "your cheque is in the mail" and "the dog ate my homework."
Little story about getting your money up front: A few years ago we had a call from a production company doing a festival about an hour from us. They needed an analog FOH desk and insert/FX rack. It seems the headline artist on Saturday had "no digital mixers" in their rider and the company was providing a shiny new Yammy M7 (so new the FOH tech was reading the manual when I got there). The story is the company had an FOH package at another festival whose Friday headline act had "no digital" in their rider and that the gear would get a moonlight drive to Kansas and be in place for line check at 2:00 pm.
The rest of the story was that the Friday night show took a major thunderstorm hit and the console case became a leaking dinghy. Not good. Can we help?
You bet, but we'd done work with these folks before and told them that we needed payment upon arrival at the dock. No problem, we're told, so we hop in the truck and head to the show. When we get there the guy we need to collect from is still massaging the Tour Manager, who is still threatening to withdraw the show on rider issues. We get the local hands to partly unload the truck and get the console and racks on the dock. The stage manager sees what is up and gets hands to move the gear to FOH.
The FOH tech looks up from the M7 manual and smiles. Seeing a PM4000 must have made his day after trying to learn (and teach) the M7. He figures out the patching needed and heads to the stage to get looms and cables to extend 29 channels of snake about 20'.
The console is powered up, I check the FX patch over headphones, take care of channel inserts and then head to catering because it's noon. When I head back stage I look for our contact and the money. He's off dealing with some other little brush fire, I'm told. Oh goody! Somehow the catering isn't as tasty as it might have been 10 minutes earlier...
The locals clear the deck and the headliner's TM begins the setup. I check in with him and discover that I know the monitor guy "from way back" so we exchange greetings and threaten to catch each other up on old times. Make my way back to FOH and help the tech do the snake extension. About that time the BE shows up to verify the input list, inserts and FX routing and then he heads to the stage to do mic placement. It's almost 2pm and we haven't been paid. I shut down the mixer and take the power umbilical.
Shortly after the BE comes back to begin line check. "Uh, why is the console off" he asks. "Because they didn't pay for an umbilical, the desk and FX are free" I say with a wink. "Is there a problem here?" "Only if I don't collect the desk rental in advance." The BE mutters some things I couldn't make out as he heads back to the stage to have a convo with the TM. Com flasher goes off, I'm asked to come back stage.
Monitor Friend, TM and BE have a little meeting with me to suss out why I have the console umbilical around my neck instead of between the PSU and the console. I explain the payment terms of the rental. TM grits teeth and leaves to look for the production company guy. Monitor friend takes me off to the side and says "I'll personally guarantee the rent payment, Tim, just get us up so we can at least line check." For him, sure. That's the value of a relationship between colleagues, even after not seeing each other for 5 or 6 years.
We get their sound check done and I tell BE that the umbilical is going to the truck for safekeeping. He nods. Snake is repatched back to the M7 and the next BE loads his show file, killing the PA in the middle of the grand prize drawing. FOH tech gasps. I leave them to their fun.
Hours go by and I'm lounging in the back of our truck, waiting for money. Eventually it's time for the headline act. We patch the snake and... wait. For money. Seems the TM was assured that we'd be paid before they went on and that my Monitor Friend's guarantee wasn't needed. Well now it is.
The SM is trying to find the production company rep. Monitor Friend comes up and presses $200 into my hand. While not the full amount due, it's the good will gesture that says "you'll get taken care of." I get the umbilical out of the truck and go to FOH so BE can commence with pre-show line check. TM is holding the artist in the bus, though, telling him that his monitor engineer had to take care of the production company's problem.
After being on site for almost 9 hours, the production company rep finally decides to grant me an audience. I hand him the invoice and he hands me a check. "Oh no, you were told 'green cash money' but I'll put your check toward the back balance on your hoist rental from 3 months ago IF the check is good. Get me cash for the console." He's mad as hell. BE shakes his head and radios the TM. Another 5 minute hold goes by and finally cash is delivered to me by the runner. FOH is ready, the emcee brings on the band and a good time is had by most of us. 8)
This was lucky. The personal relationship between me and Monitor Friend meant the show would happen, and that relationship helped the BE and TM back me up. They were deceived about the analog package from the beginning, there was never a plan to provide what they specified and they figured that out when they arrived. Within reason they were willing to make the production company rep squirm in front of his client, the festival promoter.
Get your money up front or withhold your services. You can't repossess a service once it's performed.
It is crap. This is a combination of "your cheque is in the mail" and "the dog ate my homework."
Little story about getting your money up front: A few years ago we had a call from a production company doing a festival about an hour from us. They needed an analog FOH desk and insert/FX rack. It seems the headline artist on Saturday had "no digital mixers" in their rider and the company was providing a shiny new Yammy M7 (so new the FOH tech was reading the manual when I got there). The story is the company had an FOH package at another festival whose Friday headline act had "no digital" in their rider and that the gear would get a moonlight drive to Kansas and be in place for line check at 2:00 pm.
The rest of the story was that the Friday night show took a major thunderstorm hit and the console case became a leaking dinghy. Not good. Can we help?
You bet, but we'd done work with these folks before and told them that we needed payment upon arrival at the dock. No problem, we're told, so we hop in the truck and head to the show. When we get there the guy we need to collect from is still massaging the Tour Manager, who is still threatening to withdraw the show on rider issues. We get the local hands to partly unload the truck and get the console and racks on the dock. The stage manager sees what is up and gets hands to move the gear to FOH.
The FOH tech looks up from the M7 manual and smiles. Seeing a PM4000 must have made his day after trying to learn (and teach) the M7. He figures out the patching needed and heads to the stage to get looms and cables to extend 29 channels of snake about 20'.
The console is powered up, I check the FX patch over headphones, take care of channel inserts and then head to catering because it's noon. When I head back stage I look for our contact and the money. He's off dealing with some other little brush fire, I'm told. Oh goody! Somehow the catering isn't as tasty as it might have been 10 minutes earlier...
The locals clear the deck and the headliner's TM begins the setup. I check in with him and discover that I know the monitor guy "from way back" so we exchange greetings and threaten to catch each other up on old times. Make my way back to FOH and help the tech do the snake extension. About that time the BE shows up to verify the input list, inserts and FX routing and then he heads to the stage to do mic placement. It's almost 2pm and we haven't been paid. I shut down the mixer and take the power umbilical.
Shortly after the BE comes back to begin line check. "Uh, why is the console off" he asks. "Because they didn't pay for an umbilical, the desk and FX are free" I say with a wink. "Is there a problem here?" "Only if I don't collect the desk rental in advance." The BE mutters some things I couldn't make out as he heads back to the stage to have a convo with the TM. Com flasher goes off, I'm asked to come back stage.
Monitor Friend, TM and BE have a little meeting with me to suss out why I have the console umbilical around my neck instead of between the PSU and the console. I explain the payment terms of the rental. TM grits teeth and leaves to look for the production company guy. Monitor friend takes me off to the side and says "I'll personally guarantee the rent payment, Tim, just get us up so we can at least line check." For him, sure. That's the value of a relationship between colleagues, even after not seeing each other for 5 or 6 years.
We get their sound check done and I tell BE that the umbilical is going to the truck for safekeeping. He nods. Snake is repatched back to the M7 and the next BE loads his show file, killing the PA in the middle of the grand prize drawing. FOH tech gasps. I leave them to their fun.
Hours go by and I'm lounging in the back of our truck, waiting for money. Eventually it's time for the headline act. We patch the snake and... wait. For money. Seems the TM was assured that we'd be paid before they went on and that my Monitor Friend's guarantee wasn't needed. Well now it is.
The SM is trying to find the production company rep. Monitor Friend comes up and presses $200 into my hand. While not the full amount due, it's the good will gesture that says "you'll get taken care of." I get the umbilical out of the truck and go to FOH so BE can commence with pre-show line check. TM is holding the artist in the bus, though, telling him that his monitor engineer had to take care of the production company's problem.
After being on site for almost 9 hours, the production company rep finally decides to grant me an audience. I hand him the invoice and he hands me a check. "Oh no, you were told 'green cash money' but I'll put your check toward the back balance on your hoist rental from 3 months ago IF the check is good. Get me cash for the console." He's mad as hell. BE shakes his head and radios the TM. Another 5 minute hold goes by and finally cash is delivered to me by the runner. FOH is ready, the emcee brings on the band and a good time is had by most of us. 8)
This was lucky. The personal relationship between me and Monitor Friend meant the show would happen, and that relationship helped the BE and TM back me up. They were deceived about the analog package from the beginning, there was never a plan to provide what they specified and they figured that out when they arrived. Within reason they were willing to make the production company rep squirm in front of his client, the festival promoter.
Get your money up front or withhold your services. You can't repossess a service once it's performed.
Last edited:
Re: Money $$$$$
I know it's probably just the tech in me, but that story had more to it than most current Hollywood blockbusters.
Cheers!
I know it's probably just the tech in me, but that story had more to it than most current Hollywood blockbusters.
Cheers!
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Money $$$$$
Post his name here and send him a link to this thread. You'll be paid instantly.
Mention that you have 24 hours to edit the thread and take his name off, before the thread becomes a permanent part of the Internet, and so does his payment history.
Post his name here and send him a link to this thread. You'll be paid instantly.
Mention that you have 24 hours to edit the thread and take his name off, before the thread becomes a permanent part of the Internet, and so does his payment history.
I had to get the claws out once to get paid for some grunt work I did a while back. I sent him a certified letter stating I worked this many hours at this agreed upon rate. I then sent another letter stating that if I wasn't paid I would go to the soliciter with an illegal employment and unpaid back wages claim. I burned that bridge to the ground, but have had no problem getting work from others.
In SC there is a incredibly steep penalty for unpaid wages after 30 days. Add that to the fines for dodging payroll tax plus whatever else, and dude suddenly made sure I had my money. My $400 could have quickly become well over $40,000 after fines and legal fees. Learn your local laws and use them to your advantage.
Side note there was a small restaurant near me that racked up $5mil in back wages and penalties due to underpaying employees over 2 years. That doesn't include fines or legal fees, just what was paid to the employees.
Sent from my neural implant
Re: Money $$$$$
Last update before Im charged with murder. The owners son came with on the gig, whos a good friend or mine here at school, got sent a check and I have yet to receive even any word from the guy. Emails, facebook messages, calls, all ignored.
Last update before Im charged with murder. The owners son came with on the gig, whos a good friend or mine here at school, got sent a check and I have yet to receive even any word from the guy. Emails, facebook messages, calls, all ignored.
Re: Money $$$$$
Tough but fair.
Hibbing? The ghost of Bobby Zimmerman will infest his home and sing nasal ballads 24/7 if he doesn't pay up. And Phil Ochs will sing the encores.
Tough but fair.