Money $$$$$
- Thread starter JP Huff
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Re: Money $$$$$
Yeah I agree. Funny thing, as soon as it got to the point of "wheres my money?" I had run into a lot of engineers and started a new internship and had told my story multiple times and had made sure to include name and company and location haha. But I did have another job until I picked up a decently big internship that takes up most of my time. Thank goodness for understanding parents paying for gas and groceries!
Yeah I agree. Funny thing, as soon as it got to the point of "wheres my money?" I had run into a lot of engineers and started a new internship and had told my story multiple times and had made sure to include name and company and location haha. But I did have another job until I picked up a decently big internship that takes up most of my time. Thank goodness for understanding parents paying for gas and groceries!
Re: Money $$$$$
Thats what Im doing for a few shows coming up. And I'd say that Matt and the ATL boys should bump up a little haha. BTW, can I get a harford sound shirt?
Thats what Im doing for a few shows coming up. And I'd say that Matt and the ATL boys should bump up a little haha. BTW, can I get a harford sound shirt?
Re: Money $$$$$
$300 a night for a national touring engineer? Damn, man, you're pricing me out of the market!
$300 a night for a national touring engineer? Damn, man, you're pricing me out of the market!
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Money $$$$$
I think he's talking about local bar/club stuff. That market won't take much more than $300/night.
I think he's talking about local bar/club stuff. That market won't take much more than $300/night.
Re: Money $$$$$
That would put you out of the Church market------------Maybe that is the idea??????????????????????????????Not that it matters, but my hourly rate for freelance work starts at $66.6/hour
Re: Money $$$$$
~~:smile:
One of my pet peeves is how little money people with a special skill and special talent are supposed to work for. The average rate in (smelter, mining and heavy) industry in the US is something like $28.50, here in Norway it is a bit more, about $35. That is what you get for working eight hour days and five days weeks with guaranteed pay for all your working hours, no talent requirement, on the job training etc.
If you are a music teacher or singing coach, with teaching skills and the special talent that means you are among that 1% of the population that could possibly aspire to such a job, you are expected to work at a rate that is about 75% of industrial wages, and most of the time you will not be offered full time employment, so you need to have another job to pay the bills.
Looking at my own skill level and amount of technical insight I'd bring to a job, I consider a fair wage to be in the region of what Helge mentioned for an eight hour a day kind of job, (but no one in their right mind would ever pay me that kind of money).
For an FOH guy or Monitor guy that is actually skilled and talented and delivers a stellar mix during a show, anything under $100 per hour is a joke.
Seems a fair rate for a demi demonNot that it matters, but my hourly rate for freelance work starts at $66.6/hour
~~:smile:One of my pet peeves is how little money people with a special skill and special talent are supposed to work for. The average rate in (smelter, mining and heavy) industry in the US is something like $28.50, here in Norway it is a bit more, about $35. That is what you get for working eight hour days and five days weeks with guaranteed pay for all your working hours, no talent requirement, on the job training etc.
If you are a music teacher or singing coach, with teaching skills and the special talent that means you are among that 1% of the population that could possibly aspire to such a job, you are expected to work at a rate that is about 75% of industrial wages, and most of the time you will not be offered full time employment, so you need to have another job to pay the bills.
Looking at my own skill level and amount of technical insight I'd bring to a job, I consider a fair wage to be in the region of what Helge mentioned for an eight hour a day kind of job, (but no one in their right mind would ever pay me that kind of money).
For an FOH guy or Monitor guy that is actually skilled and talented and delivers a stellar mix during a show, anything under $100 per hour is a joke.
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Re: Money $$$$$
Yep, but you have to tour
Yep. Touring world pays a good bit better.
Yep, but you have to tour
Re: Money $$$$$
Per, how about if we flip that iceberg over? Which job is providing greater value to the employer?
Or, possibly another way to look at it; how many music teachers [and sound guys] are there working as smelters who would jump at the chance to teach music [or turn knobs (I mean load trucks)] 8 hours a day 5 days a week but don't do so because there simply aren't enough jobs in those fields? I have to think that for every person making a living in the sound industry there are dozens more who could be doing the same thing at the same competence level but instead choose a more stable job with better pay.
Per, how about if we flip that iceberg over? Which job is providing greater value to the employer?
Or, possibly another way to look at it; how many music teachers [and sound guys] are there working as smelters who would jump at the chance to teach music [or turn knobs (I mean load trucks)] 8 hours a day 5 days a week but don't do so because there simply aren't enough jobs in those fields? I have to think that for every person making a living in the sound industry there are dozens more who could be doing the same thing at the same competence level but instead choose a more stable job with better pay.
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Re: Money $$$$$
If you want to make a lot of money, you are going to have to do something that the world needs and that 1000 other people aren't willing to do for free, like being a garbage man or proctologist. Supply and demand are alive and well here, mostly dominated in our case by too much supply of folks willing to work for cheap, and lack of education on the part of the demand to know or value the difference between a highly skilled operator and a sort of skilled operator.
Re: Money $$$$$
As far as hourly or daily rates, I believe you have to look at what is included. Your time is obvious but what about any overhead costs such as insurance, business license, a business address/phone/internet/ISP, advertising and so on? If you don't have any overhead costs then you can offer a lower hourly rate, however not having some of those aspects may also limit your opportunities or put you at greater personal risk. What about costs for an attorney, CPA and other professionals who provide any professional services to you such as helping draft a contract, review contracts, prepare taxes and so on? What about taxes and are your services subject to sales tax where you are located? How about compensating for experiences like the one you had where someone does not pay you, do you want to charge a standard rate that accommodates some clients not paying?
I think this is why comparing rates can get misleading as it is not always clear how much of that relates to the actual services and how much to overhead, indirect costs, taxes and so on, which can vary greatly.
I remember one client for an install with an old employer that returned the invoice with design, programming (AMX and audio DSP) and installation struck out and the associated amounts deleted from their payment, arguing that they had never requested those services. It was explained that they were required to provide the operating system they requested, but they refused to pay for them. Eventually our CFO told them that's fine, when was the space available for us to get the drawings, deinstall all the equipment and remove the programming? The Client immediately agreed to pay the rest of the invoice.
As far as hourly or daily rates, I believe you have to look at what is included. Your time is obvious but what about any overhead costs such as insurance, business license, a business address/phone/internet/ISP, advertising and so on? If you don't have any overhead costs then you can offer a lower hourly rate, however not having some of those aspects may also limit your opportunities or put you at greater personal risk. What about costs for an attorney, CPA and other professionals who provide any professional services to you such as helping draft a contract, review contracts, prepare taxes and so on? What about taxes and are your services subject to sales tax where you are located? How about compensating for experiences like the one you had where someone does not pay you, do you want to charge a standard rate that accommodates some clients not paying?
I think this is why comparing rates can get misleading as it is not always clear how much of that relates to the actual services and how much to overhead, indirect costs, taxes and so on, which can vary greatly.
I remember one client for an install with an old employer that returned the invoice with design, programming (AMX and audio DSP) and installation struck out and the associated amounts deleted from their payment, arguing that they had never requested those services. It was explained that they were required to provide the operating system they requested, but they refused to pay for them. Eventually our CFO told them that's fine, when was the space available for us to get the drawings, deinstall all the equipment and remove the programming? The Client immediately agreed to pay the rest of the invoice.
Re: Money $$$$$
I totally get that, which is why actors, formula one drivers and pro footballers are paid minimum wages~;-)~:wink:
Yeah, competition sometimes get confused with supply. And whenever the ones that are recruiting/hiring/paying fail to see the need for skill and quality, or in fact recognize real skill and quality, then it becomes an exercise in recruiting either the cheapest or the one the gives the best interview.
The sound industry are giving the impression that good sound comes from renting a big, expensive rig. Festival committees are being told that only the big rig that is able to cover the whole festival area with 120dB and headroom to spare will be good enough to ensure the success of the festival. A sound system for the community hall? Only a Meyer installation with insane headroom will do, never mind that it is going to be operated and trashed by someone without training, insight or talent 99% of the time. No problem say the installer, we'll just lock the controller down after we have tuned it for an empty auditorium.
Like the rest of industry, sound has become an exercise in investing in equipment instead of people.
Personally, I wouldn't be worth what I consider a fair wage for my skill level. I know I can bring a lot of skill and insight to a systech job, and would have no qualms about accepting a job at the right wage in that field (given the opportunity to get up to speed), but there are so many skilled people willing to work harder for a lot less that I know it would never happen. I also know that I haven't got the talent to do a stellar FOH or Monitor job, and therefore I consider that job to be worth more, particularly because I know for a fact that not many have the combination of talent, insight and experience to do that job to the highest standard.
There are of course quite a few FOH guys out there that are being paid big money because their skill has been recognized and the producers, artists and record labels insist on hiring them.
I totally get that, which is why actors, formula one drivers and pro footballers are paid minimum wages
~;-)~:wink:Yeah, competition sometimes get confused with supply. And whenever the ones that are recruiting/hiring/paying fail to see the need for skill and quality, or in fact recognize real skill and quality, then it becomes an exercise in recruiting either the cheapest or the one the gives the best interview.
The sound industry are giving the impression that good sound comes from renting a big, expensive rig. Festival committees are being told that only the big rig that is able to cover the whole festival area with 120dB and headroom to spare will be good enough to ensure the success of the festival. A sound system for the community hall? Only a Meyer installation with insane headroom will do, never mind that it is going to be operated and trashed by someone without training, insight or talent 99% of the time. No problem say the installer, we'll just lock the controller down after we have tuned it for an empty auditorium.
Like the rest of industry, sound has become an exercise in investing in equipment instead of people.
Personally, I wouldn't be worth what I consider a fair wage for my skill level. I know I can bring a lot of skill and insight to a systech job, and would have no qualms about accepting a job at the right wage in that field (given the opportunity to get up to speed), but there are so many skilled people willing to work harder for a lot less that I know it would never happen. I also know that I haven't got the talent to do a stellar FOH or Monitor job, and therefore I consider that job to be worth more, particularly because I know for a fact that not many have the combination of talent, insight and experience to do that job to the highest standard.
There are of course quite a few FOH guys out there that are being paid big money because their skill has been recognized and the producers, artists and record labels insist on hiring them.
Re: Money $$$$$
What someone gets paid versus what the customer gets charged is going to be completely different. I can find qualified board operators that will work for FAR less than $100/hr, so why would I pay anyone that rate? Now, of course, I try to make sure that when I hire someone, it's for more than an hour or 2 at a time. All time is paid, including setup and teardown, and travel. Meals and expenses are also covered. Typically, I end up paying about $15-$25/hr, depending on experience, and difficulty of the job. Of course, I charge the customer more than that, as I have to cover the overhead of the business. That usually works out to $75-100/hr or so to the customer for labor.
It all comes down to supply and demand. There are lots of sufficiently qualified operators available, which keep the prices where they are. Would it be nice to be paid more? Of course. But your average customer doesn't see the value in spending more when they can pick from a supply of good enough talent to do the job. Now, that being said, it IS possible to convince customers to pay more if you can prove to them that the quality is that much better. But it can be hard work, and you'll always have people knocking on the door willing to do the job for less.
What someone gets paid versus what the customer gets charged is going to be completely different. I can find qualified board operators that will work for FAR less than $100/hr, so why would I pay anyone that rate? Now, of course, I try to make sure that when I hire someone, it's for more than an hour or 2 at a time. All time is paid, including setup and teardown, and travel. Meals and expenses are also covered. Typically, I end up paying about $15-$25/hr, depending on experience, and difficulty of the job. Of course, I charge the customer more than that, as I have to cover the overhead of the business. That usually works out to $75-100/hr or so to the customer for labor.
It all comes down to supply and demand. There are lots of sufficiently qualified operators available, which keep the prices where they are. Would it be nice to be paid more? Of course. But your average customer doesn't see the value in spending more when they can pick from a supply of good enough talent to do the job. Now, that being said, it IS possible to convince customers to pay more if you can prove to them that the quality is that much better. But it can be hard work, and you'll always have people knocking on the door willing to do the job for less.
Re: Money $$$$$
Ha ha, nice play. But, I think there is an element of risk to those 3 positions that causes many to back away from trying. And also, the payoff for the employer of all three of your examples is pretty high. A good sound guy simply doesn't give that kind of return.
I think you nailed it. It's this way all over society. It's simply simpler to invest in tangible equipment instead of the intangible of human resources. I've finally come to the conclusion that the human mind is just too small to act rationally, especially on a society level.
I totally get that, which is why actors, formula one drivers and pro footballers are paid minimum wages
Ha ha, nice play. But, I think there is an element of risk to those 3 positions that causes many to back away from trying. And also, the payoff for the employer of all three of your examples is pretty high. A good sound guy simply doesn't give that kind of return.
I think you nailed it. It's this way all over society. It's simply simpler to invest in tangible equipment instead of the intangible of human resources. I've finally come to the conclusion that the human mind is just too small to act rationally, especially on a society level.
How about this angle? I think there is also a tendency of paying a premium for those services that you can't even begin to do yourself. There are many who will call a plumber or an electrician because they don't know anything about those trades or the work to be done. When it comes to sound, think of how many people have successfully hooked up their stereo systems at home so they think they could be the sound man if need be. They're hiring out of convenience. How many band leaders can run a sound mixer? Most of them think they can.
Re: Money $$$$$
There are a number of folks who would say that cheap non-crap gear is having the opposite effect - a person with a pair of VRX on a stick sells their "line array" to an unsuspecting festival committee, and the gig is a disaster due to inadequate gear.
Most actors, race car drivers, and athletes, painters, musicians, photographers, etc. are indeed paid minimum wage (or at least a lot less than they want to be paid) - if they are paid at all. There are a few that make the big bucks, but still a tiny percentage of the pool. Those that do have figured out a niche where their value has been recognized. Those of us whining about our wages (not necessarily implying you Per) haven't.I totally get that, which is why actors, formula one drivers and pro footballers are paid minimum wages
There is a general assumption that competency is somewhat related to the quality of the gear. While there are surely anomalies everywhere along the continuum, it's more true than not. It certainly can be the case that the customer doesn't know what they're buying and may be sold a system that is too big/too small/too orange/too disco/whatever, but even this is market regulated - the promoters/venue owners who get it wrong end up going away; too much of which is bad for everybody - the installers, musicians, gear manufacturers, and or course the sound purchasing customers.
There are a number of folks who would say that cheap non-crap gear is having the opposite effect - a person with a pair of VRX on a stick sells their "line array" to an unsuspecting festival committee, and the gig is a disaster due to inadequate gear.
Re: Money $$$$$
That is of course a general problem in our society, that due to taxes, legislation, administration, over-administration, bureaucracy, insurance, etc., I have to work for two weeks to hire me for a day. While some overhead makes sense, clearly it has in general gone way too far to be healthy for the economy. Don't get me started on how several widespread economic principles in modern business thinking are based on statistical "evidence" that totally disregard important statistical principles in regard to dynamic systems.
Suppose I had the choice between deploying a million dollar rig at 30K a night with an adequate FOH guy, or deploy a 500K rig at 15 K a night and spend the 10K difference on hiring Danny Leake and paying my crew a good salary? What would be best value for my customer, what would most likely ensure a good experience for the concert-goers? It isn't always about spending more, but spending right.
That is of course a general problem in our society, that due to taxes, legislation, administration, over-administration, bureaucracy, insurance, etc., I have to work for two weeks to hire me for a day. While some overhead makes sense, clearly it has in general gone way too far to be healthy for the economy. Don't get me started on how several widespread economic principles in modern business thinking are based on statistical "evidence" that totally disregard important statistical principles in regard to dynamic systems.
Suppose I had the choice between deploying a million dollar rig at 30K a night with an adequate FOH guy, or deploy a 500K rig at 15 K a night and spend the 10K difference on hiring Danny Leake and paying my crew a good salary? What would be best value for my customer, what would most likely ensure a good experience for the concert-goers? It isn't always about spending more, but spending right.
Re: Money $$$$$
Since the topic has swerved slightly to discuss the general topic of wages and what drives them, i feel like it's time for me to trot out what i call 'The 2 Magic Rules for Making Money'.
1. Don't do something that Everyone Wants to do.
This rule explains why hanging dry wall, or plumbing, or mining for that matter pay fairly well and Acting, Singing, and other artistic pursuits do not. Yeah, Madonna, and Tom Hanks have done quite well for themselves, but they are just the exception that proves the rule. If you want to make a good living, do something that most people don't want to do.
2. Don't do something where someone is paying you [directly or indirectly] from their own pocket.
This little rule explains why businesses that cater to other businesses are somehow able to charge so much more for things than those that serve the actual public. Bookkeepers don't mind writing company checks, but feel pretty different about writing a personal one. If you want your checks to get bigger, start finding ways to get paid by a corporate check and not a personal one.
These two rules show up in our world in a couple of ways. First, it is always going to be hard to make a living in this business because from the outside it looks glamorous and cool, and in some ways it actually is. What could be cooler than hanging out back stage with rock bands and going to shows? Now those of us that have done this for a while know that the reality is quite a bit more back breaking and unglamorous. But we still do it because we LOVE to do it. And there is an endless line of people younger, and more energetic that love it just as much and will do it for a LOT less money.
Second, these two little rules also explain why Corporate Audio pays so much and Entertainment audio pays so little. In many cases the latter is more technically difficult, and requires a larger investment in gear. But nobody wants to do sound for taking heads. How fun is that? AND, in corporate audio, you're not getting paid by the band, you're getting paid by the accountant with a company check. Just another business expense to write off. As a corporate sound guy i made more than all but the absolute top-tier Touring Band guys just doing talking heads and video playback.
I can't say i've always done a great job following my own rules. I did get into audio for a living after all, which certainly violates rule 1 right off the bat. But i did apply them liberally when deciding which career paths to take along the way and they have served me well.
Since the topic has swerved slightly to discuss the general topic of wages and what drives them, i feel like it's time for me to trot out what i call 'The 2 Magic Rules for Making Money'.
1. Don't do something that Everyone Wants to do.
This rule explains why hanging dry wall, or plumbing, or mining for that matter pay fairly well and Acting, Singing, and other artistic pursuits do not. Yeah, Madonna, and Tom Hanks have done quite well for themselves, but they are just the exception that proves the rule. If you want to make a good living, do something that most people don't want to do.
2. Don't do something where someone is paying you [directly or indirectly] from their own pocket.
This little rule explains why businesses that cater to other businesses are somehow able to charge so much more for things than those that serve the actual public. Bookkeepers don't mind writing company checks, but feel pretty different about writing a personal one. If you want your checks to get bigger, start finding ways to get paid by a corporate check and not a personal one.
These two rules show up in our world in a couple of ways. First, it is always going to be hard to make a living in this business because from the outside it looks glamorous and cool, and in some ways it actually is. What could be cooler than hanging out back stage with rock bands and going to shows? Now those of us that have done this for a while know that the reality is quite a bit more back breaking and unglamorous. But we still do it because we LOVE to do it. And there is an endless line of people younger, and more energetic that love it just as much and will do it for a LOT less money.
Second, these two little rules also explain why Corporate Audio pays so much and Entertainment audio pays so little. In many cases the latter is more technically difficult, and requires a larger investment in gear. But nobody wants to do sound for taking heads. How fun is that? AND, in corporate audio, you're not getting paid by the band, you're getting paid by the accountant with a company check. Just another business expense to write off. As a corporate sound guy i made more than all but the absolute top-tier Touring Band guys just doing talking heads and video playback.
I can't say i've always done a great job following my own rules. I did get into audio for a living after all, which certainly violates rule 1 right off the bat. But i did apply them liberally when deciding which career paths to take along the way and they have served me well.
Re: Money $$$$$
My point is that once you have passed the selection process, once you are one of the select few, you are entitled to a high wage because you are one of the very few, as opposed to accepting a low wage because there are lots of people wanting the job you have.
If I was working in sound, I would probably whine about my wages. As it is, what I do I do for free, if someone for some strange reason insists on paying I suggest donation to either the church piano fund or my wife's travel fund for her students.
Being paid a decent amount for your work is not only a question of paying the bills, but also a question of pride (if you don't want to pay me what I think I'm worth, then you better not hire me).
My point is that once you have passed the selection process, once you are one of the select few, you are entitled to a high wage because you are one of the very few, as opposed to accepting a low wage because there are lots of people wanting the job you have.
If I was working in sound, I would probably whine about my wages. As it is, what I do I do for free, if someone for some strange reason insists on paying I suggest donation to either the church piano fund or my wife's travel fund for her students.
Being paid a decent amount for your work is not only a question of paying the bills, but also a question of pride (if you don't want to pay me what I think I'm worth, then you better not hire me).
This is true, but what sort of competence is it indicative of? Your ability to provide good sound or your ability to convince your investors and your bank to throw more money at you? Is the need for the latest and biggest rig and the shiniest and biggest 16-wheelers dictated by your actual need for the equipment or your need to show your clients that you are successful?