60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

This is the reason why clipping an amp will burn up drivers more than an unclipped amp. The voltage is no greater when clipped, there is just more average power delivered, and the harder the amp is clipped the closer it comes to delivering twice as much (+3dB) more average power than it's sine wave rating would indicate.

I would be VERY CAREFUL with that statement.

There are quite a few people who simply believe that a clipped signal will burn a speaker easier than a sine wave . WITHOUT paying any attention to the actual voltage (and the resultant wattage-area under the curve).

Of curse with signals of the same peak voltage-but they ignore that part and just focus on the "clipped signals cause more damage" part.

 

[Jason Joseph]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

So to summarize which is the best method?

1/2 AES as Art suggested which brings you to 115w RMS limit.
Or 230w limited to maybe 250w RMS and 500w PEAK.

Example BMS 4595

Driver Watts	Dbu	A 32db
H	230	42.90	34.86

Using a Powersoft M50Q

Amplifier Watts	A Dbu
H	750	77.46	40.00

Proposed Limiter Settings

Limiter Settings	Dbu	A 32db
H	-5.13	-2.27

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

So to summarize which is the best method?

1/2 AES as Art suggested which brings you to 115w RMS limit.
Or 230w limited to maybe 250w RMS and 500w PEAK.

This ignores Art's post about different rated drivers. If your signal is evenly distributed, then you are fine, but if you have all highs and no mids or vice versa, then you will have too much signal in this band. (Assuming you are running at max power.)

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

This ignores Art's post about different rated drivers. If your signal is evenly distributed, then you are fine, but if you have all highs and no mids or vice versa, then you will have too much signal in this band. (Assuming you are running at max power.)

That’s one of the reasons I went 3-way with the 4594 and twelves. The BMS is a very powerful driver and I suspect in most applications it would be perfectly fine with the passive crossover, however in this case I felt it may be driving it quite hard so it needed every bit of protection I could get.

I didn’t want to set the limiter for the level needed to protect the VHF (80W) over the whole driver, nor did I want set the limiter for the HF (150W) and not protect the VHF. I thought about modifying the crossover to include a PolySwitch device to protect the VHF and then set the limiter to protect the 150 watt capacity of the HF

At the end of the day I already had amp racks and processing that allowed me to run the system with subs fully active. I was also chasing every bit of quality I could get; going all active gives a fraction more sound quality as does the HE version of the 4594.

I suspect for many people the passive crossover version will be able to go loud enough without any problems.

I’m using Power soft K6’s on the DIY and its unusual to see anything metering on the box; occasionally I have seen -15 db and very occasionally – 9dB lights on the lows and virtually never anything other than the signal lights on the HF and VHF … but that may just be a case of the meter ballistics being too slow.

I must say that when I look at the system in operation it does not look like it would be possible to get that much sound out of such a small box … it looks wrong.

http://www.powersoft-audio.com/docman/56-k-series-user-guide/file
Powersoft’s manual has some suggestions for setting limiters that are in line with Bennett’s, Art’s and Ivan’s comments … section 9.11

 

[Jason Joseph]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Sorry guys I was assuming using it with the Crossover..

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

I would like to build a pair of the 60 degree version AND a pair of the 90 degree version, but I don't have the free time right now (or anytime soon!) to put into building them. Is there anyone in North America (preferably Canada or upper eastern USA) who would be willing to take on a small project of building the cabs (unloaded) for me? Anyone? Bueller......?????

Peter, fantastic job on this design, truly impressive. Your contributions are a real gift to this community.

PS: Have you given an official name to your design? 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi doesn't exactly have a nice ring....

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

I would like to build a pair of the 60 degree version AND a pair of the 90 degree version, but I don't have the free time right now (or anytime soon!) to put into building them. Is there anyone in North America (preferably Canada or upper eastern USA) who would be willing to take on a small project of building the cabs (unloaded) for me? Anyone? Bueller......?????

Peter, fantastic job on this design, truly impressive. Your contributions are a real gift to this community.

PS: Have you given an official name to your design? 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi doesn't exactly have a nice ring....

Jeff, depending on how close to the original design you'd like to be, and how much lead time you'll allow, I could be coaxed into building four of my version of the box. Maybe. Honestly, it's not as good as Peter's design, but they work! It also depends on how finished you want the cabs to be when you get them.

PS: I think the name we agreed upon was PM69, right? :twisted:

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

I think the name we agreed upon was PM69, right? :twisted:

I think Peter gets to decide, not the royal we, but I think that since we are in a service industry, and we have to think of our clients, perhaps using a sexual reference is not the best way to go, if this is intended for high end sound quality, and associated services.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

I think Peter gets to decide, not the royal we, but I think that since we are in a service industry, and we have to think of our clients, perhaps using a sexual reference is not the best way to go, if this is intended for high end sound quality, and associated services.

The initial idea came from Peter Morris 60deg/90deg but someone decided that there were... other... interpretations.

Seriously, though - what do you call them, Peter?

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Jeff, depending on how close to the original design you'd like to be, and how much lead time you'll allow, I could be coaxed into building four of my version of the box. Maybe. Honestly, it's not as good as Peter's design, but they work! It also depends on how finished you want the cabs to be when you get them.

Speaking of Max's version of the box, we got to have some fun with it a few weeks ago! We did a mini "shootout" in my shop. The DIY vs. a d&b M4 vs. a Community SLS960.

The settings that Max rolled with out of the gate were a little, "eh" sounding. I think they were a modified version of what Peter had posted, because he was working with a much more limited processor. So, we spent a little time with SMAART and came up with with Max has dubbed the "DIY lite preset." I took a much simpler approach to EQ'ing/aligning the box, and was quite happy with the results. I gotta say, it packs a lot of SPL in a little-ish box, and the low section does a good job of keeping up with the mid/high. However, after seeing the DIY in person, it certainly not as "compact" as I was expecting. It's somewhere in between a Community SLS920 and 960 size wise, just a little lighter.

So, anyhoo... Some remarks from the listening tests:

The d&b M4 was the all around best sounding out of the gate. It's also the lightest and most compact. Also the most expensive. It's 44lbs, pole mountable and came within 2dB of limit on Max's somewhat conservative presets. The Community SLS960 was the loudest by far- about 6dB more output(and I didn't bother running it into limit) than where Max's DIY stopped. But, the 960 was also the "SPL by sheer force" box. It gets loud, sounds decent doing it, but doesn't quite have the detail or smoothness of the other contenders. If you just need stupid loud, the SLS960 is the winner in this case. A little disclaimer though, I was running an older preset which isn't quite a fine-tuned, so that put the 960 at a little disadvantage. But on to the DIY...

I'm impressed all around! It's a cool design and my hat goes off to Peter for making a low section that can keep up with that big ass horn. Even at high SPL it keeps right up and is damn clean doing it. It's easy to have a good sounding, loud as balls MF/HF when you have a massive driver on a massive horn. But having a low section that can keep pace is the key to success, and Peter did it. It's certainly a good box for the money involved, and if you have any kind of carpentry skills, it can be a good money maker for a small audio company.

Oh, and on a side note: I know the quest for a sub that can keep up has been an ongoing venture... Well, Max can attest to this as well, my CD218 kept right up with the DIY. 8)~~



Evan

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Oh, and on a side note: I know the quest for a sub that can keep up has been an ongoing venture... Well, Max can attest to this as well, my CD218 kept right up with the DIY. 8)~~



Evan

Is that "keep up" one to one?

A spacer box to put the bottom of the horn about 6ft up with latches to hold the stack together would make a nice minimal footprint rig especially for lower stages or rooms with lower ceiling heights.



Sent from my XT1254

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Speaking of Max's version of the box, we got to have some fun with it a few weeks ago! We did a mini "shootout" in my shop. The DIY vs. a d&b M4 vs. a Community SLS960.

The settings that Max rolled with out of the gate were a little, "eh" sounding. I think they were a modified version of what Peter had posted, because he was working with a much more limited processor. So, we spent a little time with SMAART and came up with with Max has dubbed the "DIY lite preset." I took a much simpler approach to EQ'ing/aligning the box, and was quite happy with the results. I gotta say, it packs a lot of SPL in a little-ish box, and the low section does a good job of keeping up with the mid/high. However, after seeing the DIY in person, it certainly not as "compact" as I was expecting. It's somewhere in between a Community SLS920 and 960 size wise, just a little lighter.

So, anyhoo... Some remarks from the listening tests:

The d&b M4 was the all around best sounding out of the gate. It's also the lightest and most compact. Also the most expensive. It's 44lbs, pole mountable and came within 2dB of limit on Max's somewhat conservative presets. The Community SLS960 was the loudest by far- about 6dB more output(and I didn't bother running it into limit) than where Max's DIY stopped. But, the 960 was also the "SPL by sheer force" box. It gets loud, sounds decent doing it, but doesn't quite have the detail or smoothness of the other contenders. If you just need stupid loud, the SLS960 is the winner in this case. A little disclaimer though, I was running an older preset which isn't quite a fine-tuned, so that put the 960 at a little disadvantage. But on to the DIY...

I'm impressed all around! It's a cool design and my hat goes off to Peter for making a low section that can keep up with that big ass horn. Even at high SPL it keeps right up and is damn clean doing it. It's easy to have a good sounding, loud as balls MF/HF when you have a massive driver on a massive horn. But having a low section that can keep pace is the key to success, and Peter did it. It's certainly a good box for the money involved, and if you have any kind of carpentry skills, it can be a good money maker for a small audio company.

Oh, and on a side note: I know the quest for a sub that can keep up has been an ongoing venture... Well, Max can attest to this as well, my CD218 kept right up with the DIY. 8)~~



Evan

Thanks Evan,

Everyone’s input in to this project has been great. The biggest issue is developing good pre-sets on all the different platforms. Thanks for helping with this

With the latest’s FIR pre-sets we have not lost a shoot-out to anyone yet, and for its size and frequency range - 100Hz – 20KHz, it’s as loud as anything out there that I have been able to find, but I suspect I have been less conservative with the limiter settings than Max.

The Lake LM 26 that I am using also allows excellent limiting and protection for the driver so you can get the maximum output. I’m also running the HF driver two-way so I can get the absolute maximum out of the driver safely; I’m not sure what Max has done (?)

FWIW the M4 uses a variant of this B&C driver http://www.bcspeakers.com/products/coaxial/15-0/8/15hcx76 and here is a picture of the driver and inside the box http://soundman.com.ua/2014/01/testirovanie-koaksial-ny-h-stsenicheskih-monitorov/2/

The B&C 12” I used has more or less the same power handling and efficiency as the M4’s 15" except there are 2 of them in a ported horn, so I would expect if the DIY was pushed as much as the processing in the d&b system allowed, it would be at least 6 - 8 dB louder. It’s the cleaver limiting and processing that allows d&b to extract every possible dB and not fail or sound compressed … and that’s one of the things you are paying for .

When you compare the BMS4594 to the M200/VHF100, the BMS is slightly more efficient, takes slightly more power while covering the same frequency range. The bigger horn in the 960 would however have an advantage over the RCF HF950 used in the 90 degree DIY. The 960 only has 65 of horizontal coverage and is probably best compared with the 60 degree DIY … and yes its needs a better name ... suggestions welcome

The 60 degree version has 2 – 3 dB more SPL than the 90 degree version.

The low section of the DIY maintains its output down to 100Hz, the 960 dies away from about 200Hz. I actually modelled my best guess of the SLS 960 and TW Audio's T24 (below) low section before I built the DIY. I thought these were both excellent designs.

The 960, T24 and DIY will give you about the same above 200 Hz for the same input; the DIY will give you 2 – 3 dB more between 100Hz and 200Hz because of the longer horn … getting efficiency out of that last 100Hz is hard if you want to keep the box small.

I’m really interested in your sub … is it similar to a B2 in design? What I have found is that I need about 3 really good 18” drivers (e.g. 18sound 18NLW9001) per side to keep up to one DIY. I suspect with a B2 type of design that is exactly what you are getting.

I really appreciate your input and I hope as a result Max and every one using “standard” IIR processors will benefit.

http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/SLS960_Spec.pdf
http://www.twaudio.de/en/individual-components/t-24
https://soundforums.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=99896

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Jeff, depending on how close to the original design you'd like to be, and how much lead time you'll allow, I could be coaxed into building four of my version of the box. Maybe. Honestly, it's not as good as Peter's design, but they work! It also depends on how finished you want the cabs to be when you get them.

PS: I think the name we agreed upon was PM69, right? :twisted:

Hi Max, thanks, I will PM you.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Thanks Evan,

Everyone’s input in to this project has been great. The biggest issue is developing good pre-sets on all the different platforms. Thanks for helping with this

With the latest’s FIR pre-sets we have not lost a shoot-out to anyone yet, and for its size and frequency range - 100Hz – 20KHz, it’s as loud as anything out there that I have been able to find, but I suspect I have been less conservative with the limiter settings than Max.

The Lake LM 26 that I am using also allows excellent limiting and protection for the driver so you can get the maximum output. I’m also running the HF driver two-way so I can get the absolute maximum out of the driver safely; I’m not sure what Max has done (?)

FWIW the M4 uses a variant of this B&C driver http://www.bcspeakers.com/products/coaxial/15-0/8/15hcx76 and here is a picture of the driver and inside the box http://soundman.com.ua/2014/01/testirovanie-koaksial-ny-h-stsenicheskih-monitorov/2/

The B&C 12” I used has more or less the same power handling and efficiency as the M4’s 15" except there are 2 of them in a ported horn, so I would expect if the DIY was pushed as much as the processing in the d&b system allowed, it would be at least 6 - 8 dB louder. It’s the cleaver limiting and processing that allows d&b to extract every possible dB and not fail or sound compressed … and that’s one of the things you are paying for .

When you compare the BMS4594 to the M200/VHF100, the BMS is slightly more efficient, takes slightly more power while covering the same frequency range. The bigger horn in the 960 would however have an advantage over the RCF HF950 used in the 90 degree DIY. The 960 only has 65 of horizontal coverage and is probably best compared with the 60 degree DIY … and yes its needs a better name ... suggestions welcome

The 60 degree version has 2 – 3 dB more SPL than the 90 degree version.

The low section of the DIY maintains its output down to 100Hz, the 960 dies away from about 200Hz. I actually modelled my best guess of the SLS 960 and TW Audio's T24 (below) low section before I built the DIY. I thought these were both excellent designs.

The 960, T24 and DIY will give you about the same above 200 Hz for the same input; the DIY will give you 2 – 3 dB more between 100Hz and 200Hz because of the longer horn … getting efficiency out of that last 100Hz is hard if you want to keep the box small.

I’m really interested in your sub … is it similar to a B2 in design? What I have found is that I need about 3 really good 18” drivers (e.g. 18sound 18NLW9001) per side to keep up to one DIY. I suspect with a B2 type of design that is exactly what you are getting.

I really appreciate your input and I hope as a result Max and every one using “standard” IIR processors will benefit.

http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/SLS960_Spec.pdf
http://www.twaudio.de/en/individual-components/t-24
https://soundforums.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=99896

Evan and I did have a ton of fun a few Saturdays ago when we did the mini-shootout. It was nice to hear the DIY with a sub as well as in comparison to other speakers. For the first cabinet I've ever built, it didn't turn out half bad, though certainly not perfect. As far as it not being as "compact" as Evan was hoping, that is certainly my fault - mine is a tad taller than the other boxes so I could have an easily removable horn baffle, and I didn't angle the back sides of the box like Peter did. I haven't weighed it yet, but I'd say I came in right around 80 lbs. Certainly manageable.

Evan is pretty spot on with the listening test results. The M4 kicks ass, the 960 is stupid loud, and the DIY was a little cleaner. I will say that the coaxial driver really makes a difference, especially active rather than passive. Evan and I didn't mess with it much at all, and it still sounded absolutely fantastic. When I have some extra time, I'll be able to clean up the DIY settings a bit more, since Evan and I left a lot to be done.

As far as Evan's subs go, I'll spill the beans: It's a big box with a big driver and a big port. Additionally, it also has a big amp! Really - Evan's done a great job with them. In all honesty, if my limiters weren't set so low (think at least 3dB, if not more), we might have been able to outrun his sub, as the 12s had plenty left in them. Even so (if I know Evan) by the time I catch up his subs will be even louder, so what's the point?

The definitive conclusion from that day was that the DIY is a great box that makes a lot of sound and sounds good doing it. I can't wait to revise my CNC design in the coming weeks and get the thing sounding as good as it gets without FIR processing. Might even take a pass at it with the TDA if I get excited - who knows?!

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

FWIW here are a couple of SIMs comparing the low section power response. The SPL response is more, particularly at the higher frequencies once you allow for directivity. These are of course only my best guess and are just computer simulations.

The DIY is using the B&C 12" @ 400 watts each . The M4 is at 400 watts and the 960 is using 2 x 10" drivers @300 watts per driver. The 960 will make the same SPL as the DIY above 200Hz when you allow for the directivity etc. but is 3 dB less around 100Hz. The trick with M4 is to use all of the program rating of 800 watts.

 

[sean hennessey]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

FWIW here are a couple of SIMs comparing the low section power response. The SPL response is more, particularly at the higher frequencies once you allow for directivity. These are of course only my best guess and are just computer simulations.

Peter are these 2pi or 4pi?

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

4pi - whole space

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

I can't wait to revise my CNC design in the coming weeks .....

Max, I PM'd you... did you get it?

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Is that "keep up" one to one?

A spacer box to put the bottom of the horn about 6ft up with latches to hold the stack together would make a nice minimal footprint rig especially for lower stages or rooms with lower ceiling heights.



Sent from my XT1254

1:1 worked quite well. Max's box was tapping limit with 4dB left on my PLM20k. 8:1 was just silly.

 

[Marjan Milosevic]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

How much power you put in the top?