60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Mark Wilkinson said:
Hi Don, the latency is about 75ms.
But this is an overkill first run at, ...... 'see what can be done at the limit of the processor'.
I mean I'm using maximum taps, and reaching into steepest x-over topology....

So there is a lot of room to cut back latency. I think alot.....and without changing phase or amplitude curves much.
At this point, getting a feel for the cutbacks available, I'm guessing optimal sound quality vs latency, lies in the 25 -30 ms range.
I'm thinking this gets phase flat on the mids down to 80hz, and subs from 80 up... IOW near perfect summation and flat phase from 80hz up...while needing to let natural sub delay below 80 be what it may be...

Only more testing will tell...
Maybe 25-30 ms is still too much for live work?
That will be a shame...cause if the sound quality at 25-30ms stays like what I've got now...damn, we want it.
I've simply never heard recorded music like this. Never heard so much definition at all frequencies, particularly in the sub-to-main transition region.
I always knew the DIY had outstanding transient response...never knew it could go all the way down to the sub, with the same clarity and balls...just my lack of tuning ability really...rePhase rocks.

Hey Peter, thanks again for sharing such a great design.
And Don, thank you for your invaluable contributions as well.
Mark be a happy camper ... He have most excellent sound and be learning tons :)
Click to expand...

30ms is beginning to creep into the range where people will notice the time difference between what they hear and what they see - even before we get into the distance it travels! Also, nothing above 8Hz will ever align to the stage, but alas, who cares if you're 10dB louder?
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Mark Wilkinson said:
Hi Don, the latency is about 75ms.
But this is an overkill first run at, ...... 'see what can be done at the limit of the processor'.
I mean I'm using maximum taps, and reaching into steepest x-over topology....

So there is a lot of room to cut back latency. I think alot.....and without changing phase or amplitude curves much.
At this point, getting a feel for the cutbacks available, I'm guessing optimal sound quality vs latency, lies in the 25 -30 ms range.
I'm thinking this gets phase flat on the mids down to 80hz, and subs from 80 up... IOW near perfect summation and flat phase from 80hz up...while needing to let natural sub delay below 80 be what it may be...

Only more testing will tell...
Maybe 25-30 ms is still too much for live work?
That will be a shame...cause if the sound quality at 25-30ms stays like what I've got now...damn, we want it.
I've simply never heard recorded music like this. Never heard so much definition at all frequencies, particularly in the sub-to-main transition region.
I always knew the DIY had outstanding transient response...never knew it could go all the way down to the sub, with the same clarity and balls...just my lack of tuning ability really...rePhase rocks.

Hey Peter, thanks again for sharing such a great design.
And Don, thank you for your invaluable contributions as well.
Mark be a happy camper ... He have most excellent sound and be learning tons :)
Click to expand...

Hi Mark,

Firstly that looks fantastic ... and I hope it sounds as good as it looks :nod:. In terms of latency I would suggest you aim for about 15ms. That means for most typical setups you are likely to be using this type of box for you will be roughly in line / time with the back line instruments.

Im about to do some more work on the settings - I currently have about 7.5ms on the double 12" and about 15ms on the double 14". The 15ms seems to work perfectly for most shows so far ... so I am going to flatten the phase a little more ... about 7.5ms worth.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Peter Morris said:
Hi Mark,

Firstly that looks fantastic ... and I hope it sounds as good as it looks :nod:. In terms of latency I would suggest you aim for about 15ms. That means for most typical setups you are likely to be using this type of box for you will be roughly in line / time with the back line instruments.

Im about to do some more work on the settings - I currently have about 7.5ms on the double 12" and about 15ms on the double 14". The 15ms seems to work perfectly for most shows so far ... so I am going to flatten the phase a little more ... about 7.5ms worth.
Click to expand...

Hi Peter, thanks !
Yep, 15 ms is ballpark for the DIY to my horn subs anyway....so at least i have 15ms of "free FIR time" to play with on the DIY
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

That depends on the amount of LF-content and the desired SPL. If you want a flat PA you need a sub that delivers the same amount of SPL as the DIY. If you want 12dB more LF but run the system as background noise in a restaurant a single 18 can be enough. If you want ear-bleeding loud AND 12dB more sub you'll need several subs per top.

The 12N862 will get you somewhere around 130-135dB if you put two of them in a case and supply ample power
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Jason Joseph said:
Peter and Mark what amps are you currently using..?
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Powersoft K6 and K10

@ Toby - My subs are quite powerful - double 18's loaded with 18sound 1800/3600 watt 18NLW9000 http://www.eighteensound.com/Products/Articles/Detail/catid/4050/eid/3323/18nlw9601 powered with a K10

In general the tops will out run these - at a guess I need about one and a half of these for "normal" applications and two of these per side of bass heavy applications. Where I don't have to go loud I use a single 21".

My double 21" (B&C 21SW152's) with a K10 seem to be a good match for most applications.
 
Jason Joseph said:
Ahh a quick question.. More of a what is everyone else doing.. Did you guys go with the two 12-16ohm versions in parallel or two 12-8ohm versions in series? Pros / cons of either setup.. ?
Click to expand...
2 times 8 Ohm parallel, because then you can drive it with a cheaper amp (if you use 1 top per side).
If you need 2 per side, then having 8 Ohm per cabinet might be benificial. Depends on the amps you have / want to buy.

Note that the 12s need 1-2kW per cabinet.
 
Jason Joseph said:
yeah the 12ndl76 comes in either 16ohms or 8ohms just wanted to see what everyone else was doing and why.. The goal is 8ohm cabinet max two (cabs)per amp channel on the 12's...
Click to expand...

Hi Jason,

I second Peter,
And if I thought I was mainly going to be running two cabs per side on one amp channel, I'd definitely go with the 16 ohmers...

 
Jason Joseph said:
Hello all,

I know most are using FIR filter settings but I was wondering if anyone had any IIR filter settings as well that I could use as a base for testing??

Thanks in advance..
Click to expand...

Which version were you thinking of building - 60 degree or 90 degree , which 12" drivers ... and did you want to use a passive crossover on the HF - VHF ??
 
I have been reading this thread and the 90 degree version thread and have decided to build two 90 degree two way boxes. Thank you Peter Morris for sharing all that knowledge.

What I find most interesting is the DSP things. The tools and methods I see used here are all new to me, but I am looking very much forward to get going.

I have managed to collect all the hardware, so I am ready to make some saw dust.

My wood working skills are limited, so I was hoping that someone would share their experience building the boxes.

First question that pops to my mind is if anyone has built exactly according to Don's (thank you Don) plan: 'diy mid-high 8-6-15a'?

So it would be safe to cut all parts beforehand according to Don's plan? Or do you cut as you go along?

Is there a good method of building? like for example a sequence of assembling the parts, and are you using just glue, or nails or screws?

I have built four Xoc TH-18 tapped horn using screws and normal wood glue on all joints, which I think maybe is not necessary for this build?

I am really looking forward to this project.

Thank you all in advance.
 
Is it ok that the HF 950 horn looks like this? The flange is far from flat, but I guess when attached to the driver it will be ok? Does it have to be air tight?

Thanks :0)
 

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