60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60
- Thread starter Peter Morris
- Start date
Are you planning on using them on their sides? Looks like you have feet on them for that? I've been curious as to how they would work in that orientation.
8 and yes they have been tuned slightly.. Still some more work to do since we deal with varying forms of musical content but they sound sweet. The BMS easily outruns the 12s in the current configuration so we dial them back a little..
Yes on the sides we were also curious as the pm60 cutoff is very sharp as designed. Much wider spread laying flat and still couples great vertically..
Setup is Powersoft M50q on horns with passive crossover, Camco Vortex 6 on 12s (16ohm versions)..
Here's a take at an overall sensitivity spec for the DIY 60...
Methodology was to put the usual ref voltage(s) 2v, 2.83v, on the mid section, and let the HF and VHF voltages fall where they may with a flat magnitude trace.
Attached spread sheet shows this, along with "rated continuous power" extrapolations....
Nothing new you can't find in previous posts, but does kinda show what a great balancing job Peter did...
Peter, hope the numbers make sense!
Methodology was to put the usual ref voltage(s) 2v, 2.83v, on the mid section, and let the HF and VHF voltages fall where they may with a flat magnitude trace.
Attached spread sheet shows this, along with "rated continuous power" extrapolations....
Nothing new you can't find in previous posts, but does kinda show what a great balancing job Peter did...
Peter, hope the numbers make sense!
Hi Mark,
In my very first post I estimated the sensitivity for the Mid to be 105 dB/w/m and the HF & VHF to 112 dB. In theory, other than the low end extension, that should give a similar output to the old EAWKF850 in a much smaller and lighter box - http://eaw.com/docs/2_Legacy_Products/Loudspeakers/KF/KF850/KF850e/KF850EF_polar.pdf
Its great to see it supported by some measurements ...
Peter
Hi Mark,
In my very first post I estimated the sensitivity for the Mid to be 105 dB/w/m and the HF & VHF to 112 dB. In theory, other than the low end extension, that should give a similar output to the old EAWKF850 in a much smaller and lighter box - http://eaw.com/docs/2_Legacy_Products/Loudspeakers/KF/KF850/KF850e/KF850EF_polar.pdf
Its great to see it supported by some measurements ...
Peter
I've never heard a KF850 but at 250 lbs., I'm glad I never had to lift one. My 60degs are under 100 lbs. each. Thanks Peter!
Thanks Mark for your continued testing, I'm learning more and more as we go along.
Hey guys. Can someone point me to the post that has the latest DIY plans so I can take a look at them? Interested in the 60deg.
Hi again all.
This DIY is intriguing.
What I like about it is that it seems great for outdoor gigs. Some years ago I got out of DJing and got into pyromusicals. For a pyromusical you need to have speakers that perform well outdoors. I've been renting JBL line arrays for this purpose, but don't like them. They can get pretty harsh at high levels. On the other hand, the line array is a breeze to setup. On board amplifiers and DSP with simple presets make it easy.
The following photo was taken at a recent outdoor event. The white tent was about 700ft away. Sound can easily be heard from the tent.
I know most audio guys on the board are somewhat hardcore with advanced response measuring tools, stacks of DSP equipment and multiple filter settings. Does it really need to be that hard?
I'd like to build this box, but I don't want to need a flux capacitor to make it sound right.
In post #342 Peter mentions he would like to see a database of settings that people can try with the DIY for easy setup and testing. For people like me this would be a huge benefit. For the most part I just test with me ears. Thats not to say I don't appreciate you guys testing with your tools and software suites like SMAART. Passing along your findings and suggestions really does benefit the simple sound guy like me.
So here's my question, can I build this box and just use a miniDSP and setting suggestions from board members to make it sing?
This DIY is intriguing.
What I like about it is that it seems great for outdoor gigs. Some years ago I got out of DJing and got into pyromusicals. For a pyromusical you need to have speakers that perform well outdoors. I've been renting JBL line arrays for this purpose, but don't like them. They can get pretty harsh at high levels. On the other hand, the line array is a breeze to setup. On board amplifiers and DSP with simple presets make it easy.
The following photo was taken at a recent outdoor event. The white tent was about 700ft away. Sound can easily be heard from the tent.
I know most audio guys on the board are somewhat hardcore with advanced response measuring tools, stacks of DSP equipment and multiple filter settings. Does it really need to be that hard?
I'd like to build this box, but I don't want to need a flux capacitor to make it sound right.
In post #342 Peter mentions he would like to see a database of settings that people can try with the DIY for easy setup and testing. For people like me this would be a huge benefit. For the most part I just test with me ears. Thats not to say I don't appreciate you guys testing with your tools and software suites like SMAART. Passing along your findings and suggestions really does benefit the simple sound guy like me.
So here's my question, can I build this box and just use a miniDSP and setting suggestions from board members to make it sing?
Hi Johnny, I'll try to answer....
Yes, I think you could build the box and tune it by ear with the info that's contained in both the DIY60 and 90 threads. And certainly with forum help on any particular issues that might arise. This is assuming you use plans that are close to any of the ones posted and the specified drivers. Ears rule....
The horn and BMS coax are easy, there's no variance there....anybody's x-over settings HF to VHF should work. Easiest of all, use the passive crossover.
Everybody's mid section is probably a little different, but probably not too different to start with XO and eq settings already found in the threads, and ear it out from there. Timing may be the trickiest, but I got by with Bink's test cd and a measuring tape for years before smaart. There's also freeware REW.
The mindsp route is great, but it has two significant drawbacks. First is the consumer I/O (single ended vs balanced), and second is the consumer input and output levels. Both of these have to be thought through to use the minidsp boxes.
I guess there is also the issue of trusting a show to the whole conglomeration...
However, leaving the trust issue aside, to my knowledge once you solve the I/O details you can't begin to touch the low cost processing power and flexibility, with any pro level processor on the market.... almost at any cost.
If you do go the minidsp route, first thing to decide is mono vs stereo (as with any processor), and then whether to FIR or not. Minidsp has a bunch of products, and deciding these two from the gitgo helps simplify selection and I/O workarounds.
(I'll be happy to continue to help here, and am willing to pass you FIR files.)
OK, having said all that, let me step back a second...and offer a counter perspective.
As this stage, if you really want to be able to safely get all the DIY can offer, ...there is still a continuing learning curve going on, as only a handful or two of folks appear to have built it. As you noted, most of the guys are somewhat audio hardcore. Almost everybody changes the plans a little to their liking, and uses whatever processing is available.....probably because they do feel confident at testing. IOW, the DIY kinda begs for the ability to test still. If that's a place you don't want to go, it's worth considering.
Hope this helped, Mark
To be real - the DIY is so easy to get good sound out of that I've gotten better than expected results in my living room with the StudioSixDigital RTA and some pink noise. I was fortunate enough to get the timing out of the way earlier in the process, so all I have to do is EQ to R.A.T. (right about there) and the results are fine. It's no slouch and easily out runs my current iteration of the DIY Double 18" from these forums. When I get a chance I hope to find a field to tune in with proper equipment.
If you want to get all that you can out of the box, it lends itself very well to DSP corrections, since Peter designed it with that in mind. That said, you don't *have* to correct for every little thing in there like he has. He's designed the box such that all of the sections are very happy in their passbands, and that leads to a very detailed and very loud box from the get go.
If you want to get all that you can out of the box, it lends itself very well to DSP corrections, since Peter designed it with that in mind. That said, you don't *have* to correct for every little thing in there like he has. He's designed the box such that all of the sections are very happy in their passbands, and that leads to a very detailed and very loud box from the get go.
I hadn't logged on in awhile.
@ Max and Mark: thanks for the explanations. It was actually a confidence booster. I am a bit concerned about DSP. My thoughts were 1 miniDSP board per cab for the 3-way. The balanced kit seemed like the way to go. I guess I haven't looked into it deep enough. Can you explain what the specific limitations are and how I can correct them?
On another note I also though about using a DCX. I know they aren't the greatest and could use some improvements to components. I've heard of the opamp upgrades people do on these.
@ Max and Mark: thanks for the explanations. It was actually a confidence booster. I am a bit concerned about DSP. My thoughts were 1 miniDSP board per cab for the 3-way. The balanced kit seemed like the way to go. I guess I haven't looked into it deep enough. Can you explain what the specific limitations are and how I can correct them?
On another note I also though about using a DCX. I know they aren't the greatest and could use some improvements to components. I've heard of the opamp upgrades people do on these.
Hi Johnny, first..i think Max is right, the DIY is very easy to get great sound from. I was happy as heck with results using the DCX.....then I just got carried away with the idea of FIR tuning, ....carried away like usual, lol.
As far as miniDSP, the limitations are as mentioned previously...the consumer I/O levels, and lack of balanced inputs & outputs on most models, etc.
Which balanced kit are you talking about?
Yeah, that's a great way to go if don't want FIR. Could be the best way to go even if you do think FIR might come later.
Phoenix XLR, np. 4v I/O levels...not too much of a prob.
I'd get one for mono, get it working, and then decide next step...whether just to get another or think about moving up..
What kind of subs are you using? Any type of horn? You may want to check the 2x4 adv plugin and make sure it has enough delay ..
What would be great is if the DDRC-88A form factor was made without the Dirac Live stuff. 4x8 is exactly what I need in an overall system processor with FIR.
Ill be setting up for a sound competition of sorts in November Ill try to post a few updated pics from the event and more information on how they preform under pressure..
