Analog comeback?

[Brian jojade]

Re: Analog comeback?

Are you disagreeing with yourself?

"there will always be a market for high end consoles" but "more consoles are being sold off at diminishing prices". Diminishing prices suggest collapsing demand. Falling demand is not consistent with long term availability.

JR

Not contradicting at all. The market for high end consoles at stupid high prices will remain for a very small subset of the market. Since the demand is going down, volume of consoles being manufactured will go down as well which in turn means the high end units are going to be at an even higher premium.

Those that want these high end consoles likely have the $$ for it and would much rather buy new. The demand for used units will be far less than new, therefore resale value of the really high end stuff will be pretty low.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Analog comeback?

Are you disagreeing with yourself?

"there will always be a market for high end consoles" but "more consoles are being sold off at diminishing prices". Diminishing prices suggest collapsing demand. Falling demand is not consistent with long term availability.

JR

OK, there will always be a NICHE market for high end analog consoles.
Businesses are selling off their Heritages at silly prices because the diminishing demand means that from a modern business accounting point of view it is better to sell off and write of the loss than having dead inventory sitting there making your reported ROI/ROC worse than it could be. Or they simply need the space. An MH3 you can hardly give away these days. So if your heart is in it, it might make sense to pick up well-maintained consoles for peanuts and then being able to serve (and enjoy) that niche market for years to come.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: Analog comeback?

Stick a fork in them, they are done.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Analog comeback?

For everybody who thinks there will always be a market for high end analog consoles, I would not advise betting their business on that. If anything a niche service business to keep some old soldiers working, and perhaps a very narrow niche for new ones, but it is hard to support a formerly large company on the declining revenue of a niche. Raising the price higher will just make the decision to go digital easier for them.

The writing is already on the wall. But what would I know?

JR

 

[Geri O'Neil]

Re: Analog comeback?

Those that want these high end consoles likely have the $$ for it and would much rather buy new. The demand for used units will be far less than new, therefore resale value of the really high end stuff will be pretty low.

But that's pretty much no longer possible.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Analog comeback?

The writing is already on the wall. But what would I know?

JR

Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Analog comeback?

Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.

The (mostly) Biblical interpretation:

Mene[SUP][e][/SUP]: God has numbered the days of your analog reign and brought it to an end.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Tekel[SUP][f][/SUP]: You have been weighed on the scales (OMG!!) and found wanting in function per pound. The trucks that used to carry you have been also been weighed on the scales, and all have breathed a sigh of relief.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Peres[SUP][g][/SUP]: Your kingdom is divided and given to the Digicos and CL5s.”

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Analog comeback?

For everybody who thinks there will always be a market for high end analog consoles, I would not advise betting their business on that. If anything a niche service business to keep some old soldiers working, and perhaps a very narrow niche for new ones, but it is hard to support a formerly large company on the declining revenue of a niche. Raising the price higher will just make the decision to go digital easier for them.

The writing is already on the wall. But what would I know?

JR

Analog consoles will take their place along side film cameras and record players ....... in museums.

Sure, some of us will miss them and remissness about the good ole days (not so unlike motor heads that wish for a return to carbureted vehicles ).

I give it less than 5 years according to my own personal crystal ball.

 

[Matthew Knischewsky]

Re: Analog comeback?

I know I'm in the minority and I know I'm fighting a loosing battle but in certain applications I very much prefer mixing on an analog console. The main reason is because I feel that my band FOH mixes come together much faster and generally sound better when mixing on analog VS digital. Another reason is when mixing on analog I find myself being able to watch the stage and pay attention to the show more, while on a digital console I feel that I spend much more time immersed in the workings of the mixer. I find my eyes are more often looking down at a screen or verifying I'm on the correct fader bank when on digital.

These are just observations and there's no way I can back them up with any kind of hard data but I do know that when using a maintained working analog FOH mixer and the associated processing I certainly have more fun with my work.

I have one major hang up with digital consoles and that's the trend for more input channels with less control faders on the console surface. I can really do without flipping through fader banks of 16 channels all night long. Yes, I can assign DCAs or custom fader banks but there's something intuitive to me about having all of the channel faders available on a top layer.

There's a couple of exceptions where I prefer a digital mixer, like having many processing options available for corporate AV and events. Recall ability of digital certainly trumps analog in many cases, and being able to insert many instances of the same processor on multiple channels. Smaller main snakes by using category cable or fibre optic cable... But if I have my choice for mixing bands analog is my first choice, provided doing so isn't causing a major compromise for the event somewhere else in the system.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Analog comeback?

I know I'm in the minority and I know I'm fighting a loosing battle but in certain applications I very much prefer mixing on an analog console. The main reason is because I feel that my band FOH mixes come together much faster and generally sound better when mixing on analog VS digital. Another reason is when mixing on analog I find myself being able to watch the stage and pay attention to the show more, while on a digital console I feel that I spend much more time immersed in the workings of the mixer. I find my eyes are more often looking down at a screen or verifying I'm on the correct fader bank when on digital.

These are just observations and there's no way I can back them up with any kind of hard data but I do know that when using a maintained working analog FOH mixer and the associated processing I certainly have more fun with my work.

I have one major hang up with digital consoles and that's the trend for more input channels with less control faders on the console surface. I can really do without flipping through fader banks of 16 channels all night long. Yes, I can assign DCAs or custom fader banks but there's something intuitive to me about having all of the channel faders available on a top layer.

There's a couple of exceptions where I prefer a digital mixer, like having many processing options available for corporate AV and events. Recall ability of digital certainly trumps analog in many cases, and being able to insert many instances of the same processor on multiple channels. Smaller main snakes by using category cable or fibre optic cable... But if I have my choice for mixing bands analog is my first choice, provided doing so isn't causing a major compromise for the event somewhere else in the system.

+1 on this. I (surprisingly) mixed 90% of our gigs so far this year as a couple of known Nashville acts did not carry a FOH guy. But anyway, everything I do is obviously from scratch and analog is super fast comparatively to digital.

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Analog comeback?

I put up all my analog gear for sale today. All my riders from now on says "Digital desk only".

It was fun while it lasted, but a digital desk is faster and sounds as good or even better than most analog if you compare apples to apples.
And you don't have to walk from ch1 to the fx rack just to adjust your gate threshold

FWIW.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Analog comeback?

Analog consoles will take their place along side film cameras and record players ....... in museums.

Sure, some of us will miss them and remissness about the good ole days (not so unlike motor heads that wish for a return to carbureted vehicles ).

I didn't like carburetors and longed for fuel injection back in the '60s but only a few chevy's had it back then (59 chevy, and some vettes). So no I don't miss carbs now. My daily driver today has technology I could only dream about back in the day and some I didn't even imagine (4 valve, DOHC, posi-traction, 5-speed, etc...).

I give it less than 5 years according to my own personal crystal ball.

Since I think more than 5 years in the future this is already old news to me.

JR

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Analog comeback?

I know I'm in the minority and I know I'm fighting a loosing battle but in certain applications I very much prefer mixing on an analog console. The main reason is because I feel that my band FOH mixes come together much faster and generally sound better when mixing on analog VS digital. Another reason is when mixing on analog I find myself being able to watch the stage and pay attention to the show more, while on a digital console I feel that I spend much more time immersed in the workings of the mixer. I find my eyes are more often looking down at a screen or verifying I'm on the correct fader bank when on digital.

These are just observations and there's no way I can back them up with any kind of hard data but I do know that when using a maintained working analog FOH mixer and the associated processing I certainly have more fun with my work.

I have one major hang up with digital consoles and that's the trend for more input channels with less control faders on the console surface. I can really do without flipping through fader banks of 16 channels all night long. Yes, I can assign DCAs or custom fader banks but there's something intuitive to me about having all of the channel faders available on a top layer.

There's a couple of exceptions where I prefer a digital mixer, like having many processing options available for corporate AV and events. Recall ability of digital certainly trumps analog in many cases, and being able to insert many instances of the same processor on multiple channels. Smaller main snakes by using category cable or fibre optic cable... But if I have my choice for mixing bands analog is my first choice, provided doing so isn't causing a major compromise for the event somewhere else in the system.

This is not a technology thing as much as economics. We could make a digital console and limit it's functions to analog-like work flow. It would work and sound exactly like an analog console (ASsuming proper execution, and perhaps measure better). But the marketing department would never allow engineering to put all that horsepower under the hood and not take full advantage of digital's ability to repurpose circuit blocks and controls. Such a dedicated console could easily get beat on paper by a far cheaper digital work flow version.

If you and like minded friends are willing to pay for more encoders and less capability someone might sell it to you. let me suggest another option, and I have thought about this too. As we approach generic digital processing engines, with remote control capability, why doesn't somebody make an old school analog mimic control surface that could talk to the digital engine du jour. The only missing pieces in my mind, are lack of standardization for EQ bandwidth, but pretty much the rest of the parts needed to completely mimic an XYZ console in digital is already here. We could even make the control laws similar, but making the EQ sound the same is a final piece of the puzzle IMO.

JR

 

[Randy Pence]

Re: Analog comeback?

The warmth and sound of analog is one thing I really like, but my main issue is not being able to see everything on a digital console. I was helping a friend out on a gig a few weeks ago with a small soundcraft digital mixer at FOH (and for monitors), the next week I was back on my analog console and it was so much more comfortable. I know "what you're used to" has something to do with it, but it just didn't feel right. I also hate the way the meters work on a digital console....if you're going to turn amber and red at least mean it

It might be my ADD, but not seeing everything is actually a blessing for me. It is easier to concentrate at the task at hand when i don't need to count/look at rows and columns to get at the correct control. FWIW the Soundcraft Vi workflow is similar for me. I simply get lost in the matrix. I-live, x/m32, etc surfaces are easier in that everything and only everything i need for a channel is right there and if I need to tweak a different channel, I select it. It's not like one can simultaneously look at both a siderack and analog board to tweak a threshold while finding which channel needs a touch more reverb. The hands can grab both, but not until the eyes confirm.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Analog comeback?

Analog consoles will take their place along side film cameras and record players ....... in museums.

Sure, some of us will miss them and remissness about the good ole days (not so unlike motor heads that wish for a return to carbureted vehicles ).

I give it less than 5 years according to my own personal crystal ball.

My high school's photography teacher refuses to let the first year students in her program use anything but film cameras.

She refuses to let me know where she finds parts.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Analog comeback?

My high school's photography teacher refuses to let the first year students in her program use anything but film cameras.

She refuses to let me know where she finds parts.

Film makes you think about composition and exposure because you can't see the result in a second or 2.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Analog comeback?

This is not a technology thing as much as economics. We could make a digital console and limit it's functions to analog-like work flow. It would work and sound exactly like an analog console (ASsuming proper execution, and perhaps measure better). But the marketing department would never allow engineering to put all that horsepower under the hood and not take full advantage of digital's ability to repurpose circuit blocks and controls. Such a dedicated console could easily get beat on paper by a far cheaper digital work flow version.

If you and like minded friends are willing to pay for more encoders and less capability someone might sell it to you. let me suggest another option, and I have thought about this too. As we approach generic digital processing engines, with remote control capability, why doesn't somebody make an old school analog mimic control surface that could talk to the digital engine du jour. The only missing pieces in my mind, are lack of standardization for EQ bandwidth, but pretty much the rest of the parts needed to completely mimic an XYZ console in digital is already here. We could even make the control laws similar, but making the EQ sound the same is a final piece of the puzzle IMO.

JR

I have heard two different reasons for analog in the past. The first is the workflow. This appears to be the biggest complaint about digital.

The second is sound quality. I have heard on many occasions that a good analog console is "warmer".

I can completely understand the work flow argument. Your suggestion would cure that for sure. I am not so sure that many would still not agree that it sounds good enough (note that I personally do not believe this at all).

I also wonder what such a control surface would cost. It would likely be substantial.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Analog comeback?

Film makes you think about composition and exposure because you can't see the result in a second or 2.

And you can't see that you screwed up until it's too late to fix...

 

[Chris Nixon]

Re: Analog comeback?

I am not so sure that many would still not agree that it sounds good enough (note that I personally do not believe this at all

They'd say it sounded great, as long as you didn't actually tell them it was digital.

For certain tasks I find digital much faster actually, mixing monitors with sends on fader being the main one. It's also quicker to visually find what you want when you only have the stuff you want actually in front of you, rather than looking through a whole rack of flashing lights of dynamics to find the one that's inserted on the channel you're concerned with.

I can see wanting to have certain stuff always available being attractive, an outboard lead vocal compressor maybe, so that's it's always right there no matter what page you're on. That could be done in digital too though, a separate small screen with knobs under it that doesn't change, or only ever has a couple of functions assigned to it. Like a UDK, but a whole interface. UDI?

Chris

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Analog comeback?

The second is sound quality. I have heard on many occasions that a good analog console is "warmer".

Warmer is not a technical term... I have actually designed consoles and have no idea what that is. What do you mean by "warmer"?

Could you provide a specific example... Maybe even a sound file?. A great deal of study including well controlled double blind listening tests have been performed trying to find such proverbial sonic differences. While I concede the majority of the recent research has been trying to find fault with digital paths unsuccessfully.

JR

PS: Yes an analog mimic control surface would be more expensive, which is precisely why they don't exist, and likely won't. As kids today come up using digital boards there will be no experience with analog work flow to remember nostalgically.