Analog comeback?

[Glenn Adams]

Re: Analog comeback?

So let's put up a score card.
Let's keep to larger events, arenas, sheds, and stadiums first and then small gigs, bar rooms, clubs, and halls.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Analog comeback?

So let's put up a score card.
Let's keep to larger events, arenas, sheds, and stadiums first and then small gigs, bar rooms, clubs, and halls.

My preferences? In general, digital, unless there is secret sauce double-knot spy voodoo inside a particular analog device and the artist's reputation requires it or it's what the customer is paying for.

What I see as a stage hand working mostly arenas, is almost no analog mixers on tour. Maybe 1 FOH a year, even less for monitors - more often see a "star's hybrid" setup of analog split of $ channel inputs to analog mini-mixer, which also gets stem mixes of band or BGV, etc from the digital monitor desk... On the 2k-3k capacity theater/hall tours I don't recall an analog FOH in 3 or 4 years, and in touring theatre I think the last big analog mixer we schlepped was for Riverdance.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Analog comeback?

My point with this thread was not to argue that analog is better, which I personally think it is. But, to point out an interesting trend among some big name country artists.

 

[Christian Tepfer]

Re: Analog comeback?

When the X-32 first hit the street I asked the people checking out early units to see how they behaved for IEM and reports were that the latency was low enough that there were no complaints. So yes analog would be pretty much zero latency but apparently that is not an issue for an adequate digital path.

Again. I wish it was a problem, because that is a niche large enough that an analog console maker could probably exist on it, but apparently here is no real issue there.

As digital evolves into separate engine and control surface modules, I suspect UI will eventually be customizable for whatever you want.

I really wish there was some there there... trust me, I'm an old analog dog, but digital has compelling advantages and few draw backs.

JR

Most IEM users turn up their volume high enough to make latency a non-issue. In fact I sometimes notice ridiculously high listening levels. That makes IEM pointless when it comes to hearing protection, but hey, it's not my ears...

There are probably more psychological problems with latency than real comb-filtering. "I see you using a digital desk, they have latency, latency is bad" - I would think of changing to analog when I had the budget, logistics and all, just to avoid an argument that leads to nothing.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Re: Analog comeback?

So let's put up a score card.
Let's keep to larger events, arenas, sheds, and stadiums first and then small gigs, bar rooms, clubs, and halls.

Just to report what I've seen at the last two major shows I attended as a spectator.

Elton John - PM5000 FOH with racks of vintage and new outboard, no idea what was in monitor world. There was an article in
Live Sound Int. about the tour.

Fleetwood Mac - PM5000 FOH, could not really see what was in the outboard racks, there was something Avid setting off to the side of FOH, never saw anyone even touch it. Monitor world was Avid.

Both shows sounded great, I could set back and enjoy.

 

[Nick Boulton]

Re: Analog comeback?

Occlusion is a noticeable effect that is caused by latency. If you want proof, talk into a microphone through a pro series while wearing in ears and get someone to play with the latency settings. You'll notice a difference as the delay changes.

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Analog comeback?

My point with this thread was not to argue that analog is better, which I personally think it is. But, to point out an interesting trend among some big name country artists.

If we were to talk about trends... I would start by pointing out that 15 years ago it would have been almost 100% analog, 5 years ago somewhat analog, and 0 years ago "hey, there are still a couple guys using analog!".

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: Analog comeback?

My preferences? In general, digital, unless there is secret sauce double-knot spy voodoo inside a particular analog device and the artist's reputation requires it or it's what the customer is paying for.

What I see as a stage hand working mostly arenas, is almost no analog mixers on tour. Maybe 1 FOH a year, even less for monitors - more often see a "star's hybrid" setup of analog split of $ channel inputs to analog mini-mixer, which also gets stem mixes of band or BGV, etc from the digital monitor desk... On the 2k-3k capacity theater/hall tours I don't recall an analog FOH in 3 or 4 years, and in touring theatre I think the last big analog mixer we schlepped was for Riverdance.

My experience in our 1200 Cap theatre mirrors this. Our in-house FOH is analog, and 9 shows out of 10 I am striking the 40 channel desk and two fridge racks out of the booth to make room for the artist's digital desk.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Analog comeback?

The trend is pretty clear. I think that there will be a small market for analog for a small amount of time; however, the writing is on the wall.

On the topic of latency:

I believe that digital mixers are already in the 1-3 mSec latency range. The sound from a floor wedge takes longer than that to reach your head. IEM's are more sensitive since the speaker is less than an inch from your eardrum. I have been using IEM's with a digital mixer for the last year. I can find no artifacts at all.

I am sure that if I tried to put some intentional delays into separate mixing paths I could hear it. In a normal mix, we have never had any artifacts of any kind.

This only makes sense because it is clear that there are LOTS of people out there performing with IEM's and a digital monitor console.

I thought I would miss my analog rig when I sold it off. I don't..... not even a little bit.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: Analog comeback?

The trend is pretty clear. I think that there will be a small market for analog for a small amount of time; however, the writing is on the wall.

On the topic of latency:

I believe that digital mixers are already in the 1-3 mSec latency range. The sound from a floor wedge takes longer than that to reach your head. IEM's are more sensitive since the speaker is less than an inch from your eardrum. I have been using IEM's with a digital mixer for the last year. I can find no artifacts at all.

I am sure that if I tried to put some intentional delays into separate mixing paths I could hear it. In a normal mix, we have never had any artifacts of any kind.

This only makes sense because it is clear that there are LOTS of people out there performing with IEM's and a digital monitor console.

I thought I would miss my analog rig when I sold it off. I don't..... not even a little bit.

I hate to say it because it served me for so long so well but just the idea that I don't have to turn to tweak a system param, gates or comps, or effect is what sold me on digital from the start.
The ability to make preset store/recalls the second, and the ability to plug in one piece of side gear, a PC, to record every channel separately the third. iPad remote control is forth.

The amount of room in the truck or at FOH or the time and effort to setup and patch is last on my list.

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Re: Analog comeback?

Other than a couple A&H Zed mixers, due to cost and lack of parameters to get non techs into trouble, I don't remember installing an analog mixer in a church in a decade. Even at the low dollar, easy to use end - no analog. The very few that specifically want analog, own it and are watching it get older and need costly maintenance.

Mixing on analog at this point feels old fashioned and limiting. My only gripe about digital is the clunky UI on some of the lower proce point options.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Analog comeback?

I think the February doldrums have come early.

If your act can afford it, use what ever you like.

Its like ford vs. Chevy or Mac versus windows, anything you say is unlikely to change the mind of someone in the opposite camp.

I do know two things:
The best digital board is the one someone else paid for and then pays me to run.

Any board/setup that requires me to take my eyes of the stage for any length of time is not going to get usability marks.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[brian maddox]

Re: Analog comeback?

The trend is pretty clear. I think that there will be a small market for analog for a small amount of time; however, the writing is on the wall.

On the topic of latency:

I believe that digital mixers are already in the 1-3 mSec latency range. The sound from a floor wedge takes longer than that to reach your head. IEM's are more sensitive since the speaker is less than an inch from your eardrum. I have been using IEM's with a digital mixer for the last year. I can find no artifacts at all.

I am sure that if I tried to put some intentional delays into separate mixing paths I could hear it. In a normal mix, we have never had any artifacts of any kind.

This only makes sense because it is clear that there are LOTS of people out there performing with IEM's and a digital monitor console.

Scott, the issue of latency in IEM rigs is not that there is a noticeable delay in the mix, it's that the delayed signal mixes with a singer's own voice in their head to produce some weird phase issues. The severity of this effect depends on the anatomical shape of their ear canal, the actual amount of latency, the level of their IEMs, the tone of their voice, and just how sensitive they are to the issue.

I can hear the issue when i sing, it just doesn't bother me that much. It drives some people batty. That's why some A-list singers have their vocal delivered to their IEMs via a split into an analog desk and all the other inputs get fed through the digital monitor desk. Problem solved.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: Analog comeback?

I wonder if this much yacking was done over the transition from tube mixers and solid state?
I remember a theatre in Reading PA. that had a tube mixer. They would turn it on a day before the show to keep it from making odd sounds.

i can tell you that it was warmer

it sounded smoother, creamy, more buttery, jello like.
The low end was chunky peanut butter, the highs were crackers with a bit of bread.

 

[Christian Tepfer]

Re: Analog comeback?

Scott, the issue of latency in IEM rigs is not that there is a noticeable delay in the mix, it's that the delayed signal mixes with a singer's own voice in their head to produce some weird phase issues. The severity of this effect depends on the anatomical shape of their ear canal, the actual amount of latency, the level of their IEMs, the tone of their voice, and just how sensitive they are to the issue.

I can hear the issue when i sing, it just doesn't bother me that much. It drives some people batty. That's why some A-list singers have their vocal delivered to their IEMs via a split into an analog desk and all the other inputs get fed through the digital monitor desk. Problem solved.

Right, the latency issue comes up for singers and blowing musicians mostly, when they use IEM at moderate levels, so comb filtering occurs between the delayed IEM and the bone transmission in their head. It colors the resulting sound. Monitor engineers don't hear it, unless they sing into the singer's microphone.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Analog comeback?

Scott, the issue of latency in IEM rigs is not that there is a noticeable delay in the mix, it's that the delayed signal mixes with a singer's own voice in their head to produce some weird phase issues. The severity of this effect depends on the anatomical shape of their ear canal, the actual amount of latency, the level of their IEMs, the tone of their voice, and just how sensitive they are to the issue.

I can hear the issue when i sing, it just doesn't bother me that much. It drives some people batty. That's why some A-list singers have their vocal delivered to their IEMs via a split into an analog desk and all the other inputs get fed through the digital monitor desk. Problem solved.

Thanks Brian,

Wouldn't the same thing happen with wedges? Sound travels approximately 1 foot per millisecond. If the wedge is 6 feet from your head, you have an inherent 6 mSec delay just from the speed of sound. With a wired IEM system (I use a Furman wired IEM system), the only delay would be the digital processing of the mixer (on the X32 this is about 1 mSec).

Then there is the inherent delays we hear all the time from reflections in a room. All of these are generally tend to give you a sense of space.

Even if you are using wireless microphones, a digital console, and wireless IEM's , you have 3mSec for the mic, 3mSec for the console, and 3mSec for the IEM. It still seems like it would be OK.... but then maybe there are some people that can hear it.

Inventive idea to use an analog IEM send just to avoid the latency

Wouldn't having a little verb in the monitor cover up any slight delay anyway?

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Analog comeback?

Thanks Brian,

Wouldn't the same thing happen with wedges? Sound travels approximately 1 foot per millisecond. If the wedge is 6 feet from your head, you have an inherent 6 mSec delay just from the speed of sound. With a wired IEM system (I use a Furman wired IEM system), the only delay would be the digital processing of the mixer (on the X32 this is about 1 mSec).

Then there is the inherent delays we hear all the time from reflections in a room. All of these are generally tend to give you a sense of space.

Even if you are using wireless microphones, a digital console, and wireless IEM's , you have 3mSec for the mic, 3mSec for the console, and 3mSec for the IEM. It still seems like it would be OK.... but then maybe there are some people that can hear it.

Inventive idea to use an analog IEM send just to avoid the latency

Wouldn't having a little verb in the monitor cover up any slight delay anyway?

Do a search on "occlusion effect".

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Analog comeback?

Thanks Brian,

Wouldn't the same thing happen with wedges? Sound travels approximately 1 foot per millisecond. If the wedge is 6 feet from your head, you have an inherent 6 mSec delay just from the speed of sound. With a wired IEM system (I use a Furman wired IEM system), the only delay would be the digital processing of the mixer (on the X32 this is about 1 mSec).

Then there is the inherent delays we hear all the time from reflections in a room. All of these are generally tend to give you a sense of space.

Even if you are using wireless microphones, a digital console, and wireless IEM's , you have 3mSec for the mic, 3mSec for the console, and 3mSec for the IEM. It still seems like it would be OK.... but then maybe there are some people that can hear it.

Inventive idea to use an analog IEM send just to avoid the latency

Wouldn't having a little verb in the monitor cover up any slight delay anyway?

This is an issue with multiple sources close enough in time to cause audible comb filtering. Think multiple mics on the same source at different distances from the source. The issue is not the absolute delay in the signal chain, it's the relative delay between the monitoring chain and the direct sound when the two are combined in the ear.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Analog comeback?

Most IEM users turn up their volume high enough to make latency a non-issue. In fact I sometimes notice ridiculously high listening levels. That makes IEM pointless when it comes to hearing protection, but hey, it's not my ears...

There are probably more psychological problems with latency than real comb-filtering. "I see you using a digital desk, they have latency, latency is bad" - I would think of changing to analog when I had the budget, logistics and all, just to avoid an argument that leads to nothing.

Level is important. For combing to be severe the two sources need to be similar levels.

JR

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Analog comeback?

Interesting topic.

I believe that the reason that IEM's are more susceptible to someone actually hearing the comb filtering is that the act of plugging up the ear canal amplifies the direct sound from their skull.

The articles I read (thanks for the tip Tim) seem to indicate that the amplification is primarily the lower frequencies though. I have never heard of anyone hearing comb filtering in monitoring situations before since the wavelengths are longer and the ear is less sensitive to these frequencies.

The only time I have ever personally heard issues with my IEM's was when I used my TC Helicon VoiceWorks for pitch correction. It is an older unit and all by itself puts around 10mSec of delay into the signal when performing this task. This sounds like having a thickening voice added to your monitor mix and it can be heard (although I can still live with it despite it being kind of annoying).

I have my IEM's at a pretty decent level, but not so loud as to cause any fatigue. The send unit has limiters to protect from transients.

It is a little bit ironic that a fairly new technology (IEM's) is an argument for using an older technology (Analog mixers).