Re: Analog comeback?
Like the video of children presented with dial telephones, typewriters, and vinyl records....
Like the video of children presented with dial telephones, typewriters, and vinyl records....
Analog comeback?
- Thread starter Brandon Blakeney
- Start date
Re: Analog comeback?
I feel that if you are experienced with any analog console you can generally find what you want on any analog console rather quickly. If you are really experienced with one particular digital console you can generally find what you want and operate it quicker then an analog console. But if you try to do the same thing on a different digital console you will probably struggle to do it quickly. The differences between 2 different analog consoles isn’t usually enough to trip you up. The differences between 2 different digital consoles is usually enough to trip you up.
I have used a whole bunch of different digital consoles and I refuse to do a theatrical musical without one. But if someone came to me and said I will give you - insert very expensive (and considered fantastic) digital console unknown to me here – to use for free for your show but I can’t get it to you until the day before you are to start your tech rehearsals I would have to say no way.
And the same would go for a one off concert with an unknown digital console. But I could do the concert with an unknown analog console without too much trouble.
I feel that if you are experienced with any analog console you can generally find what you want on any analog console rather quickly. If you are really experienced with one particular digital console you can generally find what you want and operate it quicker then an analog console. But if you try to do the same thing on a different digital console you will probably struggle to do it quickly. The differences between 2 different analog consoles isn’t usually enough to trip you up. The differences between 2 different digital consoles is usually enough to trip you up.
I have used a whole bunch of different digital consoles and I refuse to do a theatrical musical without one. But if someone came to me and said I will give you - insert very expensive (and considered fantastic) digital console unknown to me here – to use for free for your show but I can’t get it to you until the day before you are to start your tech rehearsals I would have to say no way.
And the same would go for a one off concert with an unknown digital console. But I could do the concert with an unknown analog console without too much trouble.
Re: Analog comeback?
And yet, one of the major reasons for going digital is workflow.
There are of course many reasons for going digital, even sound quality, and while the biggest thing might be avoiding the need to carry 50 channels of outboard compression, and needing a fork lift to get the console to foh, I think quite a few of us went digital because our overall workflow would be vastly improved. Some things are obviously more difficult at first, and parts of the process might take longer the first time, but in the end one person is able to work a show that would require three sets of hands, cue sheets and a couple of "can you talk a bit longer or play the intro for a few more bars because we need more time to reset the console and processors for that song".
And yet, one of the major reasons for going digital is workflow.
There are of course many reasons for going digital, even sound quality, and while the biggest thing might be avoiding the need to carry 50 channels of outboard compression, and needing a fork lift to get the console to foh, I think quite a few of us went digital because our overall workflow would be vastly improved. Some things are obviously more difficult at first, and parts of the process might take longer the first time, but in the end one person is able to work a show that would require three sets of hands, cue sheets and a couple of "can you talk a bit longer or play the intro for a few more bars because we need more time to reset the console and processors for that song".
Re: Analog comeback?
So that is why none of your designs have a "warm" dial :lol:
I've always assumed that "warm" implies mainly low order harmonics and/or a limited amount of stuff above 2 khz
So that is why none of your designs have a "warm" dial :lol:
I've always assumed that "warm" implies mainly low order harmonics and/or a limited amount of stuff above 2 khz
Re: Analog comeback?
If that were the case, then more expensive analog consoles would have less 'warmth', and people would prefer the cheaper ones.
jason
If that were the case, then more expensive analog consoles would have less 'warmth', and people would prefer the cheaper ones.
jason
Re: Analog comeback?
I call those secret handshakes, that you have to learn, to operate a new system. I recall in the early days of digital EFX products where the design engineer would come up with menu organizations that made sense to them, mainly because they were easier to code, but could be confusing as heck to the customers.
The nature of digital interfaces that don't use full WYSIWYG will always require some learning curve for familiarity. Over time these different digital systems may become more similar, kind of like the way cars have steering wheels on the same side, gas and brake pedal placement, etc.
JR
I call those secret handshakes, that you have to learn, to operate a new system. I recall in the early days of digital EFX products where the design engineer would come up with menu organizations that made sense to them, mainly because they were easier to code, but could be confusing as heck to the customers.
The nature of digital interfaces that don't use full WYSIWYG will always require some learning curve for familiarity. Over time these different digital systems may become more similar, kind of like the way cars have steering wheels on the same side, gas and brake pedal placement, etc.
JR
Re: Analog comeback?
My personal design philosophy regarding euphonic signal non-linearities (like distortion or frequency response errors) is the customer is always right, so if enough customers want them they can have them, but by all means provide a bypass switch so you can also deliver a clean, flat path. I saw too much nonsense in the hifi business (still going on with esoteric recording products) where different models have their own secret sauce of euphonic deviation from linear. The problem for an objective engineer designing components to be used in a larger system where you do not control all the other links in the chain, at what point does having too much good sounding distortion become bad sounding? If each separate module has added distortion I can predict how that will turn out (badly). Reading the audio-phool journals a product's fortune would often depend on what other products it was used with for listening tests (don't get me started on phono preamp reviewers :-( ).
It's like cooking a meal and starting out with a dirty pot because you liked how the last meal tasted. I prefer to always start with a clean cooking pot.
Back in the '80s when I was still writing my column for a recording magazine I dedicated one column to a joke glossary of all the imprecise terms musicians and producers routinely throw around in studios and think that they are actually communicating information. In a bit of Karmic payback years later when I was voicing the EQ for my large recording console at Peavey (AMR), Hartley brought in a well know recording engineer/producer and they has a good old time talking with each other about how the EQ needed "balls" and other such terms (yes he was a bass player too). Just like we do when musicians spout such nonsense I guessed. I extended the low-mid sweep range down an octave so he could grab his "balls" with the EQ knob. He loved the newly voiced module I sent him to listen to in his studio.
JR
My personal design philosophy regarding euphonic signal non-linearities (like distortion or frequency response errors) is the customer is always right, so if enough customers want them they can have them, but by all means provide a bypass switch so you can also deliver a clean, flat path. I saw too much nonsense in the hifi business (still going on with esoteric recording products) where different models have their own secret sauce of euphonic deviation from linear. The problem for an objective engineer designing components to be used in a larger system where you do not control all the other links in the chain, at what point does having too much good sounding distortion become bad sounding? If each separate module has added distortion I can predict how that will turn out (badly). Reading the audio-phool journals a product's fortune would often depend on what other products it was used with for listening tests (don't get me started on phono preamp reviewers :-( ).
It's like cooking a meal and starting out with a dirty pot because you liked how the last meal tasted. I prefer to always start with a clean cooking pot.
Back in the '80s when I was still writing my column for a recording magazine I dedicated one column to a joke glossary of all the imprecise terms musicians and producers routinely throw around in studios and think that they are actually communicating information. In a bit of Karmic payback years later when I was voicing the EQ for my large recording console at Peavey (AMR), Hartley brought in a well know recording engineer/producer and they has a good old time talking with each other about how the EQ needed "balls" and other such terms (yes he was a bass player too). Just like we do when musicians spout such nonsense I guessed. I extended the low-mid sweep range down an octave so he could grab his "balls" with the EQ knob. He loved the newly voiced module I sent him to listen to in his studio.
JR
Re: Analog comeback?
I like the analogy.
But I cook in cast iron mostly and it often just gets wiped out rather than "cleaned".
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
I like the analogy.
But I cook in cast iron mostly and it often just gets wiped out rather than "cleaned".
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Re: Analog comeback?
..dave
Hey that's me! Granted I'm well into my 63rd trip around the sun but definitely a noobie kid with respect to experience on consoles. FWIW I find analog consoles (especially with patched outboard racks) extremely obtuse/difficult to use and above all unbelievably limiting. But again, as stated, I don't know nuthin'.
..dave
Re: Analog comeback?
I submit that you don't want to use your seasoned skillet to boil water for tea.
Many restaurants don't change the fryer oil every day.
I don't fry food (or haven't for several decades) so don't even own a skillet. YMMV
JR
I submit that you don't want to use your seasoned skillet to boil water for tea.
Many restaurants don't change the fryer oil every day.
I don't fry food (or haven't for several decades) so don't even own a skillet. YMMV
JR
Re: Analog comeback?
Dave, the comment I'm about to make is not about you, or your mix because I've (probably) never heard you mix but it brings to mind a point I wanted to make earlier.
Back in the old days you'd have a rack or racks of outboard gear and you'd interface it with the console and together that would make up the tools you'd have available. A bigger or higher profile gig would usually mean you'd have more toys to play with while at the lower end of the scale you'd have less. In either case at the beginning of the gig you'd have to take an inventory of the processing you had and, using your experience, connect it in such a way that you thought it would work best. Comps here, gates there etc, maybe with some left over just in case. As you learned to mix you'd gain experience connecting and working all of this gear, and as you got better at mixing you'd get better gigs with more toys in the rack, more features on the console.
I think the general tendency now is to over process simply because the toys are there. I'm certainly not hearing a vast improvement from bands who's engineers are carrying digital consoles or files for consoles. It seems that the time savings of not setting up an analog system is taken up by adjusting the processing to obtain the supposed perfect sound for an individual source, while missing that the mix is what happens when it's all combined together.
The best mixes I hear are from guys who walk up to the console, analog or digital, and just mix. It always seems the best sound guys and girls can pull off great mixes with a minimum of help from the processing.
Dave, the comment I'm about to make is not about you, or your mix because I've (probably) never heard you mix but it brings to mind a point I wanted to make earlier.
Back in the old days you'd have a rack or racks of outboard gear and you'd interface it with the console and together that would make up the tools you'd have available. A bigger or higher profile gig would usually mean you'd have more toys to play with while at the lower end of the scale you'd have less. In either case at the beginning of the gig you'd have to take an inventory of the processing you had and, using your experience, connect it in such a way that you thought it would work best. Comps here, gates there etc, maybe with some left over just in case. As you learned to mix you'd gain experience connecting and working all of this gear, and as you got better at mixing you'd get better gigs with more toys in the rack, more features on the console.
I think the general tendency now is to over process simply because the toys are there. I'm certainly not hearing a vast improvement from bands who's engineers are carrying digital consoles or files for consoles. It seems that the time savings of not setting up an analog system is taken up by adjusting the processing to obtain the supposed perfect sound for an individual source, while missing that the mix is what happens when it's all combined together.
The best mixes I hear are from guys who walk up to the console, analog or digital, and just mix. It always seems the best sound guys and girls can pull off great mixes with a minimum of help from the processing.
Re: Analog comeback?
"There was something (insert wistful descriptor) about the rotary phone/tubed tires/monochrome monitors/etc".
They are not coming back.
"There was something (insert wistful descriptor) about the rotary phone/tubed tires/monochrome monitors/etc".
They are not coming back.
Re: Analog comeback?
I would have guessed that some monitor engineers would opt for analog consoles to get rid of latency when mixing in ears. That would be an aspect where digital can not possibly win over analog. I can not think of any other aspect in sound-mixing analog can do better than digital per se. (Of course there are flawed UI-concepts in digital but racks full of stuff at analog mixing places are not as fast to use as hitting a knob on digital to access dynamics (and see the gain reduction right at channel metering), high channel counts on analog desks are not as fast as changing a layer and so on).
At FOH it may be a show-off "we are capable of paying for an analog setup and carrying the stuff around". Or "let's just confuse all our colleagues with using this old board we have sitting around in the warehouse and give some crazy interviews"
I would have guessed that some monitor engineers would opt for analog consoles to get rid of latency when mixing in ears. That would be an aspect where digital can not possibly win over analog. I can not think of any other aspect in sound-mixing analog can do better than digital per se. (Of course there are flawed UI-concepts in digital but racks full of stuff at analog mixing places are not as fast to use as hitting a knob on digital to access dynamics (and see the gain reduction right at channel metering), high channel counts on analog desks are not as fast as changing a layer and so on).
At FOH it may be a show-off "we are capable of paying for an analog setup and carrying the stuff around". Or "let's just confuse all our colleagues with using this old board we have sitting around in the warehouse and give some crazy interviews"
Re: Analog comeback?
Again. I wish it was a problem, because that is a niche large enough that an analog console maker could probably exist on it, but apparently here is no real issue there.
As digital evolves into separate engine and control surface modules, I suspect UI will eventually be customizable for whatever you want.
I really wish there was some there there... trust me, I'm an old analog dog, but digital has compelling advantages and few draw backs.
JR
When the X-32 first hit the street I asked the people checking out early units to see how they behaved for IEM and reports were that the latency was low enough that there were no complaints. So yes analog would be pretty much zero latency but apparently that is not an issue for an adequate digital path.
Again. I wish it was a problem, because that is a niche large enough that an analog console maker could probably exist on it, but apparently here is no real issue there.
As digital evolves into separate engine and control surface modules, I suspect UI will eventually be customizable for whatever you want.
I really wish there was some there there... trust me, I'm an old analog dog, but digital has compelling advantages and few draw backs.
JR
Re: Analog comeback?
I think some performers and musicians are more sensitive to the effects of latency than others but have been surprised by the amount of plug-in latency that some have tolerated without apparent issue.
For those that hear an objectionable difference, a different solution is required and I agree that there might be enough of that, world-wide, to support one or two brands. The more important issue for Brandon and others sitting on 15 year old consoles is that those mixers are getting older every year. If there are new analog alternatives forthcoming they'll be expected to upgrade at some point just because of the age of their inventory, no matter how lovingly they maintain these future museum pieces. Either way, it's not like the spending stops - maintenance is expensive and some parts will be discovered to have Unobtanium as a component.
When the price of keeping older desks 100% functional increases every year we'll see how many owners opt to remain an analog shop.
And for those who have BEs under the age of 30, don't expect instant love and familiarity with large frame analog... I've mentioned before that we've had BE's who've never mixed a show on analog FOH and I don't think that trend will change any time soon. For us, we held on to big analog until it's gasping and flailing in deep water could have taken us down with it. We let go and went with the One and Zero crowd, never looking back.
I think some performers and musicians are more sensitive to the effects of latency than others but have been surprised by the amount of plug-in latency that some have tolerated without apparent issue.
For those that hear an objectionable difference, a different solution is required and I agree that there might be enough of that, world-wide, to support one or two brands. The more important issue for Brandon and others sitting on 15 year old consoles is that those mixers are getting older every year. If there are new analog alternatives forthcoming they'll be expected to upgrade at some point just because of the age of their inventory, no matter how lovingly they maintain these future museum pieces. Either way, it's not like the spending stops - maintenance is expensive and some parts will be discovered to have Unobtanium as a component.
When the price of keeping older desks 100% functional increases every year we'll see how many owners opt to remain an analog shop.
And for those who have BEs under the age of 30, don't expect instant love and familiarity with large frame analog... I've mentioned before that we've had BE's who've never mixed a show on analog FOH and I don't think that trend will change any time soon. For us, we held on to big analog until it's gasping and flailing in deep water could have taken us down with it. We let go and went with the One and Zero crowd, never looking back.
Re: Analog comeback?
Did assistant sound at a local PAC on Vancouver Island, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, they're carrying a Behringer X-32 with ears.
My 40 channels of analog now resides in my shop as a 5 or 6 input vocal mixer for rehearsals!
Thanks, Don
Did assistant sound at a local PAC on Vancouver Island, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, they're carrying a Behringer X-32 with ears.
My 40 channels of analog now resides in my shop as a 5 or 6 input vocal mixer for rehearsals!
Thanks, Don
Re: Analog comeback?
Good Lord no. I can't provide any such thing .... and I don't believe it exists either
I was only pointing out that this is what some old analog dogs say. I assure you I don't believe it. I agree with you that there is no such thing as a digital console being less warm than an analog console unless you eq it to sound that way.
I also am more comfortable with a digital console (most of them anyway) than an analog console and a rack full of external gear. I can't see adjusting compressors and gates without my little blue dot running up and down along the graphical curve (as an example). Ringing out monitors without a tablet remote also brings back lots of bad memories as well.
As pretty much everyone agrees, my back and knees are very happy with digital these days
Good Lord no. I can't provide any such thing .... and I don't believe it exists either
I was only pointing out that this is what some old analog dogs say. I assure you I don't believe it. I agree with you that there is no such thing as a digital console being less warm than an analog console unless you eq it to sound that way.
I also am more comfortable with a digital console (most of them anyway) than an analog console and a rack full of external gear. I can't see adjusting compressors and gates without my little blue dot running up and down along the graphical curve (as an example). Ringing out monitors without a tablet remote also brings back lots of bad memories as well.
As pretty much everyone agrees, my back and knees are very happy with digital these days