Another powered speaker comparison

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

I can't remember the last time I heard a speaker EQ'd "flat" that sounded good...

I would argue that plenty of very flat loudspeakers sound very good, if they don't then you're probably trying to correct or mask something with EQ that cannot actually be fully (or perhaps even at all) corrected with EQ. Either that or you are measuring things, e.g. the room, that your ears don't perceive as part of the loudspeaker's sound. It could also be that your EQ is not behaving the way you think, or lacks sufficient resolution or has too much filter interaction to easily accomplish the corrections you need, perhaps especially in the HF.

In general, I do not tune arrays flat. I cannot recall the last time that I did.

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

What is your definition of "lightly EQ'd flat?"

I can't remember the last time I heard a speaker EQ'd "flat" that sounded good...



Evan

The goal was to have the comparison be closer to real world use. We wouldn't plug in speakers, set up routing in the DSP, and then leave off HPF, EQ, etc and run them 'raw'. As a compromise between raw (non-real-world use) and fully tuned, like we do for our installed systems, we used FFT and phase trace (and coherence some) to set up to 5 EQ filters in the DSP, so that all the speakers were as close to accurate as possible from 100Hz on up. This doesn't mean that perfectly flat is how they would necessarily be used; rather, it was a way to level the playing field, to listen for things like time non-linearities as opposed to simple EQ needs. The simple part means that we didn't use, say, 30 bands of PEQ to get the response ruler flat - at one point.

Flat - bad term, substitute 'accurate from 100Hz on up'.

 

[Phil Graham]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

I would argue that plenty of very flat loudspeakers sound very good...

...In general, I do not tune arrays flat. I cannot recall the last time that I did.

Flat, in a on-axis SMAART MTW sense, works pretty well for home audio speakers and moderate output levels.

When dealing with levels above 85dBA slow, and with speakers with much more even power response than a typical home hifi speaker, "flat" in the on-axis SMAART MTW style makes progressively less sense from the standpoint of human hearing perception, at least within the confines of western pop music.

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

The goal was to have the comparison be closer to real world use.

You do realize the market that these speakers are aimed at, right? 99% of the people buying these speakers will not have any fancy EQ available. At most, they'll have a graphic EQ to hack away. I'd be more worried about how the boxes sound out of the box, and maybe with a couple of graphic EQ cuts. Very few in the "real world" is going to have the time, knowledge or tools available to measure these speakers and make them "flat."


Evan

 

[Dan Brown]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

What is your definition of "lightly EQ'd flat?"

I can't remember the last time I heard a speaker EQ'd "flat" that sounded good...

Evan

Agreed - truly flat is not very pleasing to the ear, especially at loud volumes.

I would hope not much eq was needed.

db

[edit - woops - needed to read further]

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

You do realize the market that these speakers are aimed at, right? 99% of the people buying these speakers will not have any fancy EQ available. At most, they'll have a graphic EQ to hack away. I'd be more worried about how the boxes sound out of the box, and maybe with a couple of graphic EQ cuts. Very few in the "real world" is going to have the time, knowledge or tools available to measure these speakers and make them "flat."

Evan

We're not a retail seller, and for our use (which understood is different than the general MI retail user) the system would have DSP, would be tuned by us, etc.

This is also why we captured Smaart traces both raw and EQ'ed for each speaker, freq and phase - and why still kicking myself for not making extra backups since was on another's computer.

 

[Daniel Postilnik]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

No, the SRM450 sounds better than the K12.

Bennett, just curious - have you discussed, in more detail, what about the SRM450 sounds better than the k12 on the forum somewhere? Thanks.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Bennett, just curious - have you discussed, in more detail, what about the SRM450 sounds better than the k12 on the forum somewhere? Thanks.

No, and I won't. Shouldn't have said it in the first place.

 

[Matt Errend]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

I've got 4 NX12 SMA's in the shop right now, and they sound really good. A little peaky around 2K but other than that they're a fantastic low-profile wedge at an attractive price point.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

I've got 4 NX12 SMA's in the shop right now, and they sound really good. A little peaky around 2K but other than that they're a fantastic low-profile wedge at an attractive price point.

You stole my monitors :twisted:

Mine are still backordered...

 

[Matt Vivlamore]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

I've got 4 NX12 SMA's in the shop right now, and they sound really good. A little peaky around 2K but other than that they're a fantastic low-profile wedge at an attractive price point.

What are they comparable to?

 

[Brian Boru]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

Nice thread. You didn't like the RFC 722A, QSC K12, Yorkville NX55P, nor the Mackie SRM450 cabs. The average local band making $100/man for a gig would understandibly have a hard time justifying $6K for a pair of RCF TT25A's. So, any updates? Is there a cab in the price range of the 4-12" cabs you tested that wasn't in the test that you would recommend?

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Hi Brian,

From what we have tested, cheap = compromised. The U15P with some EQ and acoustical treatment really isn't that bad, the main complaints are the weight/size and how they aren't quite plug and play out of the box. And how you need 2/side for wider horizontal coverage, which puts them into TT price territory.

If a few hundred dollars really is prohibitive, IE can't save for a couple extra months, there are larger issues than simply speakers. If it were possible to make a great little speaker for sub-$1k, don't you think the market would be flooded with them?

Caleb

 

[Brian Boru]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

Hi Brian,

From what we have tested, cheap = compromised. The U15P with some EQ and acoustical treatment really isn't that bad, the main complaints are the weight/size and how they aren't quite plug and play out of the box. And how you need 2/side for wider horizontal coverage, which puts them into TT price territory.

If a few hundred dollars really is prohibitive, IE can't save for a couple extra months, there are larger issues than simply speakers. If it were possible to make a great little speaker for sub-$1k, don't you think the market would be flooded with them?

Caleb

Thank you for the response Caleb.

For me it really is about the money. Musician's are flakey and bands come and go. The best way around that is for me to run the show and run it like a business. That means providing a PA. The equipment I have is old, it's OK for a low level band practice which is fine since I don't like a loud stage volume, and a usable start-up PA system is needed. I'm new to the music scene where I live so I don't have many contacts which means the band will be a start-up (low paying gigs to start).

From that perspective purchasing a pair of TT25A's (I'm seeing $3.6K+/cab on feebay) and a MixWiz3-16 ($1K) plus monitors easily puts the tab at $10K for a start-system and that doesn't include more mics, stands, EQ etc. It's difficult to justify to the wife, or for someone else a significant other " hey I'm going to pull $10K+ out of our savings so I can make $100/night until the higher paying gigs come in" LOL, A reality for a lot of musicians I'm sure.

I've heard the argument about spending $2K on a guitar so why not $10K-$15K on a PA. Simple...it takes a LOT longer to save that kind of money.

I did read another post of yours if I'm not mistaken, and I'll paraphrase here, that "the RCF 312A wasn't a bad choice if you look really hard at the price". Got it. An OK speaker for the money but that's it. LOL For the price of 1 TT25A you can buy 8 - 312A cabs but, if one were to use 4 boxes as FOH would it sound like garbage?

The finances of a local start-up band are a far cry from the available funds of a Church, successful small business, or a Corporation.

What would you do with a budget of say $5K? I'm all ears. :razz:

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

Bennett, just curious - have you discussed, in more detail, what about the SRM450 sounds better than the k12 on the forum somewhere? Thanks.

No, and I won't. Shouldn't have said it in the first place.

HAH! Very interesting and I sympathize - it's hard to be diplomatic and state your opinion. There are several brands that inspire negative commentary on this forum and there are a few golden idols as well.

I didn't look for the original thread so forgive me if I missed something but it looks like one of the most popular models was left out. Love 'em or hate 'em the JBL EON's are a similar animal but have not been mentioned. No I don't own any and probably never will.

If I were a rental company it would make since to stock a bunch of powered tops but I'm not and I've gone full circle on the powered speaker thing and have gone back to amps and speakers. Not just any speakers. I've seen the light and have been converted to the tall stick idea. They take a little getting used to because the blast of a conventional speaker is not there so they seem deceivingly quiet. There are a few brands making them and I'm not crazy about the BOSE stick although it does serve a purpose. The sticks need subs just like any other speaker unless it's gonna be used for a speech only event so let's state that up front. What they don't do is hurt people or scare people yet they have the most pleasing vocal sound of any speaker I've ever used. So far I've only heard a few types and just 2 brands but I'm sold and hope to be getting some soon. For a band in a bar or even a smaller outdoor event these stick thingys are ideal and here's why - they have a very wide coverage pattern and that means I can leave the monitors at home 'cause you don't need 'em. They're small and not as scary looking when perched on top of a sub and sight lines are improved. The vocals come out better in acoustically challenged rooms than conventional speakers. For 90% of the work I do the stick concept is a major improvement. We borrowed a prototype pair of my favorite brand for a few gigs and have gotten multiple rave comments from people at every location. Sign me - ahead of the curve as a stick endorser.

 

[Brian Boru]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

HAH! Very interesting and I sympathize - it's hard to be diplomatic and state your opinion. There are several brands that inspire negative commentary on this forum and there are a few golden idols as well.

I didn't look for the original thread so forgive me if I missed something but it looks like one of the most popular models was left out. Love 'em or hate 'em the JBL EON's are a similar animal but have not been mentioned. No I don't own any and probably never will.

If I were a rental company it would make since to stock a bunch of powered tops but I'm not and I've gone full circle on the powered speaker thing and have gone back to amps and speakers. Not just any speakers. I've seen the light and have been converted to the tall stick idea. They take a little getting used to because the blast of a conventional speaker is not there so they seem deceivingly quiet. There are a few brands making them and I'm not crazy about the BOSE stick although it does serve a purpose. The sticks need subs just like any other speaker unless it's gonna be used for a speech only event so let's state that up front. What they don't do is hurt people or scare people yet they have the most pleasing vocal sound of any speaker I've ever used. So far I've only heard a few types and just 2 brands but I'm sold and hope to be getting some soon. For a band in a bar or even a smaller outdoor event these stick thingys are ideal and here's why - they have a very wide coverage pattern and that means I can leave the monitors at home 'cause you don't need 'em. They're small and not as scary looking when perched on top of a sub and sight lines are improved. The vocals come out better in acoustically challenged rooms than conventional speakers. For 90% of the work I do the stick concept is a major improvement. We borrowed a prototype pair of my favorite brand for a few gigs and have gotten multiple rave comments from people at every location. Sign me - ahead of the curve as a stick endorser.

I'm looking at doing an acoustic/electric combo with 4-5 pcs an 3-4 vocals. From what I've read any of the "sticks" would only be good for very small venues with a mixer and even that would be pushing it for anything more than a duo. Reviews say the bass and coverage outdoors is also lost unless it's in a very close environment. If the "stick" works for you that's great but for what I want to do I don't see that as an option.

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Count me skeptical of stick speakers as well. There are a few coming to market aiming to fill the small full band role, but are very pricey and don't seem to really offer much over a good trap system other than vertical pattern control. Which is only great for very short ceiling, highly reflective rooms.

Caleb

 

[Brian Boru]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

Count me skeptical of stick speakers as well. There are a few coming to market aiming to fill the small full band role, but are very pricey and don't seem to really offer much over a good trap system other than vertical pattern control. Which is only great for very short ceiling, highly reflective rooms.

Caleb

So Caleb, any ideas for workable system within my budget?

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

I'm looking at doing an acoustic/electric combo with 4-5 pcs an 3-4 vocals. From what I've read any of the "sticks" would only be good for very small venues with a mixer and even that would be pushing it for anything more than a duo. Reviews say the bass and coverage outdoors is also lost unless it's in a very close environment. If the "stick" works for you that's great but for what I want to do I don't see that as an option.

Reviews have probably only focused on the BOSE stick thingy or others like them I'm sure. My typical gig is an electric 3 - 5 pcs bass drums keys guitar etc. and we have a wide dynamic range. The important part to any system is having subs and with the stick types it's mandatory. They take some getting used to because your ear is used to hearing a speaker blast forward when you're the singer and these stick thingys have more of an omnipresent sound that seems weak at first but in reality the vocals are distributed everywhere at a pleasing non abrasive level. For any gig that a single powered top and sub combo would be used on I would rather use one of the newer hi-powered stick and sub combos. The only ones I've heard are the BOSE and Ramsdell. The BOSE are thin and anemic even with multiples and the matching koolaid subs. I would like to hear the Renkus-Heinz and compare them to the Ramsdell - in fact it would be great to have a little stick speaker review here.

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: Another powered speaker comparison

To Caleb and Brian - I was very skeptical about them too because of previous nightmare gigs involving multiple BOSE but after using this new breed of bigger better higher powered sticks I am officially converted.

Oh yeah just to stir this pot and back to the original post - how about including the powered BOSE stick and obligatory koolaid subs?

The Ramdell sticks I used were a prototype of 8 x 5" + 1" powered by Crown Xti amps on top of a single 18 sub. I'm not sure what the Renkus Heinz use but I suspect they're more money and probably use some proprietary dsp box to make them shine.