Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

[John Roberts]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

I know you get this stuff, but the "Deming Prize" was a Japanese program to encourage Japanese companies to clean up their act, and later over used by them for self-promotion IMO, Deming being American is just a little ironic icing on the cake, especially if you grasp Japanese culture and the low regard they hold all outsiders. I did my share of hand to hand competition with the japanese before the rise of Chinese manufacturing, so I may be over-sensitive..

I have seen these sundry manufacturing strategies co-opted for marketing purposes in connection with a vague squishy definition of what quality really is, as compared to what consumers think quality is. Of course in marketing, perception is reality yadda yadda.

JR

PS: I was just too lazy to post directly to Mr. Made in Germany.... who seemed to have some interesting ideas about how things work, or why they don't work.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

The Order of the Sacred Treasure was bestowed upon Deming on behalf of the Emporer; the Deming Prize was established the Japan Union of Scientists and Engineers to honor Deming and provide the "carrot on a stick" (as you point out) reward to firms that demonstrated significant improvements in quality control procedures.

You know that, I'm connecting the dots for those still playing along at home.

 

[Henry Klein]

PS: I was just too lazy to post directly to Mr. Made in Germany.... who seemed to have some interesting ideas about how things work, or why they don't work.

Me? Felt so as the one who started to talk about not being satisfied getting DOA items due to they seemed (to me) not tested right in the factory.

Henry

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

Me? Felt so as the one who started to talk about not being satisfied getting DOA items due to they seemed (to me) not tested right in the factory.

Henry

Yes, you... I rather dislike being put in the position to defend Behringer but receiving a unit that has faults, does not automatically mean that it never worked.

Just last week, I had a product fail, that I personally did the final assembly on, tested myself, then shipped across the country (US). After getting the faulty unit back I determined that the internal microphone stopped working, most likely from a drop during shipment (I haven't dissected that microphone, and I'm not sure what I would be able to tell from doing that).

Stuff happens, and when shipping over long distances with multiple hard drops, more stuff happens.

There is a design aspect to this, where modern packaging materials are better at absorbing shock from drops, and more robust internal product design can tolerate more G's of stress. A perhaps surprising amount of engineering effort goes into managing the cost/benefit of the shipping pack. It was even more of a hassle for heavy power amps. This is not Behringer's first rodeo so I expect them to be up to speed on all of all this. If they had a large fraction of DOAs, they would take a huge economic hit, and we would have heard about it on web forums.

Of course whenever humans are involved things can fall through the cracks too. I recall at Peavey one final QA inspector got fired for signing QA cards on products that could never have worked (like a speaker cabinet missing the driver). He was a dumb-ass and got voted off the island, he wasn't even smart enough to sign somebody else's initials.

JR

PS I've been inside one of the chinese contract manufacturer factories that Behringer used before he built his own factory, and they were ISO-9000, assembling equipment to low PPM failure rates.

 

[Declan Slater]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

As a Behringher dealer myself, I think I should be my responsibility to check over the product before selling it, as a final QC step. I find this adds a nicely to the "Value Added Reseller" thing... Also, since Behringer frowns heavily on drop shipping direct to any of my clients, it gives me a chance to make sure things are ok. Good luck finding that at Guitar center, full compass, or quite a number of other places...

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

As a Behringher dealer myself, I think I should be my responsibility to check over the product before selling it, as a final QC step. I find this adds a nicely to the "Value Added Reseller" thing... Also, since Behringer frowns heavily on drop shipping direct to any of my clients, it gives me a chance to make sure things are ok. Good luck finding that at Guitar center, full compass, or quite a number of other places...

Personally, I prefer sealed boxes, and will not accept an open box from my retailer. Who knows for how long he has been "qc'ing" my purchase. As an example at my behringer dealer, I waited a week for a " brand new" behringer lighting console. The box was taped shut, I thought to myself cautiously.... Okaaaay.
Took it home, the documentation was stained, had foot prints on it, the console was dated 2002. I'm still waiting for the " new one " to show up.... I'm not saying you do any of this, I'm just commenting as a consumer.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

As a Behringher dealer myself, I think I should be my responsibility to check over the product before selling it, as a final QC step. I find this adds a nicely to the "Value Added Reseller" thing... Also, since Behringer frowns heavily on drop shipping direct to any of my clients, it gives me a chance to make sure things are ok. Good luck finding that at Guitar center, full compass, or quite a number of other places...

It's nice to find out you are a Behringer dealer. That wasn't apparent from your signature.
=====

Performing additional barrier QA testing by distributors, after products are shipped into a country, and/or additional testing at dealer level, used to be routine in the past. Now it seems like it would depend on the specific market experience with that particular product. If 99.99% arrive without flaws, there is no reason to test. If there are known issues, the customer is better served by the dealer screening out any problems, saving them the nuisance of finding out later and having to return it.

If the product is obviously used, the dealer is being disingenuous to represent it as new.

If you are a dealer and opening up sealed packages, you may want to print up some of your own Q/A seals to reseal the packages after you test them. So there is no question about why the package was opened.

JR

 

[Declan Slater]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

Good point. Need to update that...

I usually sell as a design build contractor, but sometimes sell individual items to clients. Yes, I agree it's a good idea to check with the client first before opening any boxes. I've only sold 5 so far, and had to only swap one out for a sticky phase button, so pretty good so far...

Looking forward to selling more, this thing is a game changer...

 

[Chris Clark]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

A perhaps surprising amount of engineering effort goes into managing the cost/benefit of the shipping pack.

Indeed. People are often surprised when they find out that the Rochester Institute of Technology has both Bachelors and Masters programs for Packaging Science... IIRC (I was only in their lab once, and that was 9 years ago) they have a whole 6-way motion simulator designed to test packaging as if it were in the back of a truck going down various roads, various methods for scientifically testing drops, etc... and all the equipment necessary to make different kinds of packaging (vacuum formed foam, etc) Its not just "stuff some foam around it and go" there's a whole line of work dedicated to making packaging work - but even still, its a complicated step in the manufacturing and distribution process that often gets overlooked by consumers as a location for stuff to go wrong.

Could issues like that be solved completely in manufacturing? Sure, lets just solder everything by hand for stronger connections (and to alleviate possible problems with the reflow solder process too), but then you're paying top dollar for a handful of people who can solder with their eyes closed and cutting production by thousands. We could eliminate modular connectors that have a tendancy to slip with movement, but then you're eliminating modularity and making repairs that much harder. Could we use more foam with bigger pockets to absorb more shocks? Sure, but then your boxes are three times the size of the product.

It all comes down to trade-offs, and everyone has to make them. The shipping companies could put interior padding on their vehicles, or use even softer suspensions in their vehicles to make bumps less jarring, but they'd do so at a loss of cargo space and more expensive vehicles with less weight capacity, meaning more vehicles needed with higher shipping costs and longer shipping times. Its all about the balance between getting more done cheaper vs. the risk of losing 1 product out of thousands.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

Indeed. People are often surprised when they find out that the Rochester Institute of Technology has both Bachelors and Masters programs for Packaging Science... IIRC (I was only in their lab once, and that was 9 years ago) they have a whole 6-way motion simulator designed to test packaging as if it were in the back of a truck going down various roads, various methods for scientifically testing drops, etc... and all the equipment necessary to make different kinds of packaging (vacuum formed foam, etc) Its not just "stuff some foam around it and go" there's a whole line of work dedicated to making packaging work - but even still, its a complicated step in the manufacturing and distribution process that often gets overlooked by consumers as a location for stuff to go wrong.

While this is taken for granted by customers, it becomes painfully apparent to manufacturers when they ship product around the world.

I won't feed this veer with more about the science.

Could issues like that be solved completely in manufacturing? Sure, lets just solder everything by hand for stronger connections (and to alleviate possible problems with the reflow solder process too), but then you're paying top dollar for a handful of people who can solder with their eyes closed and cutting production by thousands.

I am not convinced hand soldering is very practical for low defect manufacturing.

Modern evolution to smaller SMD devices not only reduce cost because they use less raw material, but the lower mass relative to solder pad area makes for stronger mechanical attachment performance.

We could eliminate modular connectors that have a tendancy to slip with movement, but then you're eliminating modularity and making repairs that much harder. Could we use more foam with bigger pockets to absorb more shocks? Sure, but then your boxes are three times the size of the product.

Locking connectors have been available for a long time.

The physics is about applying deceleration slow enough that it doesn't stress the product to failure, but fast enough to accomplish the task in a reasonable package volume. Container shipping is pretty much priced by package volume, not weight (for electronic SKUs), so an oversized shipping pack cost money, more ways than one.

It all comes down to trade-offs, and everyone has to make them. The shipping companies could put interior padding on their vehicles, or use even softer suspensions in their vehicles to make bumps less jarring, but they'd do so at a loss of cargo space and more expensive vehicles with less weight capacity, meaning more vehicles needed with higher shipping costs and longer shipping times. Its all about the balance between getting more done cheaper vs. the risk of losing 1 product out of thousands.

This has been long inspected by folks with very sharp pencils. A common new company mistake is to under-pack products. Shippers don't go out of their way to beat up packages, but their motivation is to move them with the lowest human effort. This often involves throwing lighter smaller packages, and heavy packages get dropped, not gently placed on the ground.

Repeated small bumps and shaking, in my experience is less problematic than occasional hard drops. At my old day job we had a shaker table, and the main victims of the 24 hr shake was relatively massive circuit board components (like the higher quality caps I liked). Of course there are solutions for any problem you can identify and anticipate.

JR

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

While this is taken for granted by customers, it becomes painfully apparent to manufacturers when they ship product around the world.


Shippers don't go out of their way to beat up packages, but their motivation is to move them with the lowest human effort. This often involves throwing lighter smaller packages, and heavy packages get dropped, not gently placed on the ground.

Repeated small bumps and shaking, in my experience is less problematic than occasional hard drops. At my old day job we had a shaker table, and the main victims of the 24 hr shake was relatively massive circuit board components (like the higher quality caps I liked). Of course there are solutions for any problem you can identify and anticipate.

JR

When I worked for the USPO, we referred to a 6' drop as "product testing".

 

[Chris Clark]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

I gotta work on my tone of typing haha. I was agreeing with you, JR, most of my comments were in general a commentary on the likelihood of consumers to immediately blame the manufacturer for DOA issues which, while there are manufacturer defects and things that could be done better, sure, the shippers who perform 6' "drop tests" and practice their dodgeball skills (thank you for the examples JR and Dick - no I'm not aiming this specifically at you though ) can also play a major role in DOAs.

The rest of the post was mostly satirical - going to extremes that could (not necessarily will) alleviate some of the problems introduced in shipping products, and in every case something that is just absurd in the trade off.

And I agree about locking connectors and am actually surprised at how few you tend to see in the real world. In addition (this is a real comment, not satire) a dab of hot glue on a well-designed connector can go a long way to assist the latching mechanism too. Not only will it help hold the connector in place, if that connector does need to be removed for a repair its really not that hard to break the glue and put a new dab on after the repair.

But at the same time I'll admit I'm no expert in manufacturing, packaging, and I didn't stay at a Motel 6 last night, so these are really just the ramblings of a wannabe weekend warrior.

 

[Henry Klein]

Thanks mates for a very interesting view to these things. I never thought about these aspects before and like it a lot to hear about.

Henry

 

[Uli Behringer]

Dear All,

I wanted to address this issue with the facts about quality assurance on the X32, but before we get into the details, allow me to put it all into context.

3-Year Warranty Program
When you purchase and register your X32 (or any other BEHRINGER product) you participate in a full 3-Year Warranty Program and we will stand behind you and your X32. Not only are we here to support you in the event of an issue, but as you can see our Care and Product Specialist teams have been proactively engaging users on forums, Facebook, Twitter and everywhere else that you communicate to make your experience truly exceptional.

We Have Invested in CARE Centers in the US and UK
We have invested in two highly sophisticated CARE centers in Las Vegas and Kidderminster, UK which serve as service centers and spare part depots. If you find time, we would like to invite you and we will be more than happy to tour you around. We have learned from our previous experiences and made Service and Spare Parts a core focus. While we are not perfect, I hope you have seen over the past months that we have made great progress and we are determined to offer the very best customer support in the industry. Check out more details on our CARE centers here:
MUSIC Group Aims for Best in Class CARE Operations - Behringer News

We Understand How You Feel About Defects
I see and acknowledge posts stating that “if BEHRINGER had done their job at the factory” and understand the frustration some may feel if they should encounter an issue with a new console. Nothing could be more disappointing than to take the unit out of the box and find that it is in some way less than you expected, especially when you are spending that much money. However, as painful as that may be for you, please know that it is doubly painful for us; especially after the care we take to avoid such issues.

There are three key reasons why users may experience such issues with brand new product; and no, failure to test at the factory is not one of them. More on that later.

Cable Routing
The first reason is related to start-up issues such as the cable misrouting that has affected a small number of units out of the 30,000 X32s built thus far. While regrettable, such issues affect all manufacturers whether they are building cars or mixers or planes as recently seen with the Boeing Dreamliner; the real test is how it is handled once discovered.

I am proud of how our teams have handled such issues as we monitor closely our customers’ experiences and reported incidents, identify cause at a very early stage and fix it immediately. Again, we stand behind our customers and have fixed all issues as they appeared.

Why Some Issues Only Show up Later
he second reason for the appearance of issues is related to the first in that issues from a batch of production models will appear in different places over time and not all at the same time. In the case of the X32, as units are built they are sent directly into containers to fill orders from all over the world. As product fills the supply chain some will be in distributors’ warehouses, others will be in retail stores and some units end up in the hands of users. Predicting when a unit from a particular production run is unboxed for the first time by a user is impossible and this creates the appearance of a lasting issue when it has in fact been long resolved.

Why Shipping Has a Big Impact
Over the past months, we have received products for repair even though the customer claimed it was originally packed and the packaging was not damaged. We have investigated some of these cases and seen some damage which has been caused by high impact consistent with dropping from a height or other abuse during transport. While no product can be protected from all impact, we have since further improved the packaging and re-enforced the polyfoam the unit is embedded in as well as the carton thickness.

Why Some “Defects” are Not Defects
With the X32 we put unprecedented value and functionality into the hands of customers which often come from the analog world. While the mixer has a very intuitive workflow and short learning curve, it is expected that there is some form of learning required, especially as we offer the functionality of high-end digital consoles for a fraction of our competitors’ prices. As a consequence, we sometimes receive defect reports that are traced to user errors and simple misunderstandings, while the console is in perfect condition. Upon explanation, the issue is quickly resolved, but in reality the unit was never defective.

We have also received a few consoles where customers complain about defective faders or broken pot knobs. On inspection we have found liquid that was spilled into the faders, broken encoders where the shafts have been sheared off and other damage that is clearly caused by improper handling, impact and that age-old issue of spilled drinks in the bar. Of course such defects are not caused by us as a manufacturer.

We have also seen posts in forums where a customer will complain about defects and when we follow up, we get no response or feedback about serial numbers. Sadly we have now a strong suspicion that some of our competitors post “fake” messages to cause uncertainty. This is disappointing as we believe companies should compete on the merits of their products and service, not with deceitful practices.

How Do We Test Our Products?
This brings us to the central element here – how do we test the units at the factory to ensure they leave in perfect condition? Coincidentally, we have been working on a video that follows the whole manufacturing process behind the X32 so that users can see how their consoles are made. It is fascinating to watch the whole process, even for me, as this is the most advanced and thoroughly-tested product we have ever made under the BEHRINGER brand.

Not surprisingly, the very same manufacturing equipment, processes and quality assurance methods as used on MIDAS products are also applied to the X32. In fact some of our most senior MIDAS UK engineers have relocated to our factory in order to best supervise the build and test processes not only of MIDAS consoles but the X32 as well. The team doesn’t get much more experienced or capable than this and I am extremely proud of their work. I have posted a clip from the QA process here:
X32 Production Testing - YouTube

What you don’t see in this video is the work that takes place before final assembly testing. Each component that goes into an X32 is tested; not just samples, but each and every component. Sub-assemblies are tested through In-Circuit Testers and the results measured, with only those that pass all tests finding their way into the console.

We invest several hours in the testing of every X32 long before it gets to the stage shown in the video clip. But even at that point we invest the time to check every input, every output, every control and every switch. We measure noise, THD, frequency response and every other parameter supported by our highly sophisticated Audio Precision test stations.

Why Testing is Much More Economic Than Repair
It is critical to understand that anything is less costly than returning a unit for repair. Returning, repairing or exchanging a unit is ALWAYS more expensive than avoiding problems from the start.
It is common knowledge in manufacturing that the higher your production volume gets, the more the risk increases as one single component defect can cause tremendous damage. You see this in the car industry where recalls often affect millions of cars.

It is also a myth to believe that alleged usage of sub-par components and skipping of testing would be a cost saving. In fact it is exactly the opposite.
Any defect in the field is more expensive than preventing it from the start and hence our huge investment in people, high-end production equipment and quality control.

Thank You.
Last week we attended the annual NAMM show where we were humbled once again with recognition from the industry for our many new products and especially the X32.

Among the many accolades we were awarded the coveted Reader’s Choice Award by ProSoundWeb.com, recognized as a finalist for a TEC Award and even received the “Best in Show” Award from Pro Sound News and Pro Audio Review.
What we are most proud of however are the many, many stories we heard from dealers and users of how much they love the X32.

Lastly, allow me to close by expressing my personal gratitude for the confidence placed in the X32 by the thousands of buyers already enjoying this great piece of technology, worldwide.

I feel that the X32 is the ultimate expression of the very principle on which I founded this company 24 years ago; to deliver the very best product at the lowest possible cost.

The X32 is already shaking the industry to its core and frankly within the shortest period of time, the X32 has become the best-selling digital console in the industry; and the trend is even going upwards.

Most important, rest assured that when you buy an X32 we will ensure that it becomes a great experience and we will stand behind you. Always.

Warm regards

Uli

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

--clip-- cable misrouting that has affected a small number of units out of the 30,000 X32s built thus far.

Congrats... 30k is a significant number and surely felt by all competitors..

We have also seen posts in forums where a customer will complain about defects and when we follow up, we get no response or feedback about serial numbers. Sadly we have now a strong suspicion that some of our competitors post “fake” messages to cause uncertainty. This is disappointing as we believe companies should compete on the merits of their products and service, not with deceitful practices.

Hopefully you have notified the specific forum operators.

Most can track the IP where the registered member is posting from. No forum that I frequent would tolerate such behavior. Some even require real names as a requirement for posting, so that is unacceptable behavior for multiple reasons.

"Straw man" posts would surely be removed by the forum mods if they were made aware of them.

I have seen lots of questionable posts around the WWW over the years and appreciate "real name" rules when enforced. If you are unwilling to sign what you say, I am unwilling to take it seriously.

JR

PS: I still think you have a future writing FAB and ad copy...

 

[Nick Simon]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

PS: I still think you have a future writing FAB and ad copy...

:lol:

 

[Dieter Belletz]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

Got my Replacement X32 yesterday. First one was DOA
Checked the box and it had slight damage. Penetrated the shipping box and had a slight tear on the X32 Poster. Waaah.
However it did not penetrate the Merchandise Box.
Unpacked the unit and did a visual check. Everything ok. Plugged it in turned it on and it came right up. Sweet.
Did a quick visual on lighting, Displays and Fader movement check on all layers. Fine.
Connected an Audio Source and a PA. Did not have signal coming from Output 15.
Oh, well, read the instructions (Real Men don't need Instructions). Yeah Right
Checked output routing. It was wrong.
Made the changes and all other presets that I think I would need for my first gig and saved the whole thing.

Now I need a pilots license to further operate the unit. Wish me good luck.

I really like my new X32


... Dieter ...

 

[Jim Knowles]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

Got my Replacement X32 yesterday. First one was DOA
Checked the box and it had slight damage. Penetrated the shipping box and had a slight tear on the X32 Poster. Waaah.
However it did not penetrate the Merchandise Box.
Unpacked the unit and did a visual check. Everything ok. Plugged it in turned it on and it came right up. Sweet.
Did a quick visual on lighting, Displays and Fader movement check on all layers. Fine.
Connected an Audio Source and a PA. Did not have signal coming from Output 15.
Oh, well, read the instructions (Real Men don't need Instructions). Yeah Right
Checked output routing. It was wrong.
Made the changes and all other presets that I think I would need for my first gig and saved the whole thing.

Now I need a pilots license to further operate the unit. Wish me good luck.

I really like my new X32


... Dieter ...

Hi Dieter,

Great news, glad everythings ok for you now. I'm sure you'll soon get to grips with everything. Should you have any questions or need support in any way then please don't hesitate to contact us. Have fun and I hope your first gig with your X32 goes well. ~~:smile:

Kind Regards
Jim Knowles
CARE EMEA / Tech Support
MUSIC Group / BEHRINGER

 

[Andrew Scott]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

Well, just got mine in, unpacked it, checked for any physical damage, plugged it in and turned it on.
NOTHING
even after 5 minutes, NOTHING

The only thing that lights up is the background lighting of the buttons around the LCD display.

guess it's going back.

Waaaaaah!!!

Hey Dieter,
Our band leader just bought an x32 (and associated stage boxes, IE monitors etc) and exactly the same - out of the box, power on, no fan, no boot, just LED buttons around the screen.
How did this work out for you - did you get any insight into the problem or was it simply replaced DOA?
Cheers..

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Re: Behringer X32 - things to check when you get it

Dear Andrew,

Send me a PM with your contact info and we will help you out immediately.