Growler and other subs

Re: Growler and other subs

Perhaps you should try something other than the free google patent search. And you are right, L'acoustics may not have any readily viewable US patents, try searching for international patents originating from oh, I don't know...France?!. This would probably require that you speak a language other than English and have access to more than a home internet connection. And your statement about JBL not having "more than a handful" -- are you sure about that or are you just limited in your ability to view patents based on your limited tools?

I don't buy this "what matters is the end product" crap. If any design can be easily and readily copied, no matter how much you like the guy building it, it sucks. Nobody copies the JBL Vertec line array because they simply can't do it, no matter how many resources they have they will never be able to match the manufacturing experience of JBL. At some point, a company with leading edge technology will have to design and manufacture the machines used to design and manufacture their products, making contract manufacturing irrelevant and outdated.

But, making junk with contract manufacturers and then reselling that junk at a profit by claiming that it is "custom" to hide its true origin is a very common business model in China. One would think the technique of all marketing, no manufacturing would be limited to developing countries. Guess its not. I'll sell you some "custom" airbags for your car if you are interested-- maybe you would be interested in "custom" beef from BPI?

Not sure what this "google patent search" is - I searched the USPTO data base directly with their own tools. I'll also admit to neither being an IP lawyer, nor spending a particularly large amount of time searching for patents. The search was merely to gather enough data to illustrate a point. And as Ivan points out, the patent system can be rather slow to function. It's not uncommon for a patent to take several years from application to issue.

Regarding contract manufacturing, it is evident from your post that you are not familiar with the modern world of contract manufacturing. Let us take the widely publicized example of Apple Computer, a company that few would argue is not one of the leading consumer electronics companies in the US, if not the world. Per the latest annual report published by Apple, they own a single manufacturing facility, located in Cork, Ireland. Yet most of their products say "Assembled in China" on them. How can this be? The answer is simple - the devices are built by a contract manufacturer in China (Foxconn is one, there are undoubtedly others). Apple has provided their CMs with a design, and the CM builds it under contract. This contract often includes stipulations about intellectual property, and the run rates that Apple expects. Apple then places orders with the CM for the product it has designed.

Now, one could argue that Apple makes commodity devices, and that there isn't really any special sauce in the hardware. And that may be true, or it may not. I won't argue that point; I have better things to do. But contract manufacturing also occurs at the other end of the spectrum, with things that are decidedly not commodity. Places like Advance Circuits (a pretty well known circuit board manufacturer) and any number of machine shops come to mind. As does a company by the name of Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited (TSMC). TSMC is one of the big chip fab companies, and they make the custom A5 and A6 chips that Apple uses in their hardware. And Apple is not alone in using TSMC and other contract fab companies. Other companies that contract out their semiconductor fabrication include names you might have heard of. Names like Qualcomm, Broadcom, Nvidia, ATI, and Marvell.

Closer to on topic, how many audio manufacturers do you think make the circuit boards that are integral to their products in-house? Care to name ones that do?

But no, contract manufacturing is only for knockoff products that anyone can make....
 
Re: Growler and other subs

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Regarding contract manufacturing, it is evident from your post that you are not familiar with the modern world of contract manufacturing.

Closer to on topic, how many audio manufacturers do you think make the circuit boards that are integral to their products in-house? Care to name ones that do?

But no, contract manufacturing is only for knockoff products that anyone can make....
Danley Sound Labs uses a "contract manufacturer" that is located 2.5 hrs from our office to build the actual cabinets.

I will not name any names-but they also build products for some of the largest names in the loudspeaker business. The only thing they build is loudspeakers. While the products may have a very different overall "look" and design-they are all produced on the same CNC machines-paint booths-assembly areas etc.

Regarding the circuit boards-the actual raw circuit board itself is made by a company in the northeast US. But the boards are "stuffed" soldered-wired-tested etc in our office in GA. Granted-the crossover boards are not a huge part of the overall product-but still essential.

It is very common these days for all kinds of different parts of assemblies to be made by different companies. Very few companies do it all in house.
 
Re: Growler and other subs

I own Growlers. Be glad to talk off line about them with anyone interested in them.
PM me with your questions.

I'll have one at the Indianapolis Speaker shootout next Monday
(which will not help those of you in Canada at all. Sorry!)

I also own 4 2011 model growlers (latest drivers with grills) as well as 2 triple 8 tops.
I power the subs off an itech 8k, the tops off of an xti4000, x over @ 105, per jtr speakers recommendations. No eq necessary although I've got a Rane 31 band eq after my mixer out. I literally set it up and turn it 'on'.

I get nothing but compliments and rave reviews about how wonderfully clear and hi-fi the system sounds. After a recent wedding in a big room a sound engineer came over and asked what i was running for subs. I explained they were 12" drivers made by jtr speakers. He almost fell over 8O~8-O~:shock: when i clarified it was ONE 12 per cabinet (also, I only had two growlers at the gig). He runs EAW and was wondering if my rig was Meyer ;). His next question was where he can find out more about these growlers. :D~:-D~:grin:
Anyone with questions can contact me as well.

Royal
 
Re: Growler and other subs

Because the importation of goods for business purposes is nothing but a major pain in the butt in Canada! Paperwork, taxes, and on and on! Then if you decide not to keep it, it's even more paperwork hassle to return the item(s) back to the USA to get your taxes refunded!
I dont get that, why would you get them at the first place if you dont need them or like them. Also that VAT you pay on any product anywhere so i dont see a problem there. If you are a registered business you claim that back at the end of the year.
 
Re: Growler and other subs

TMI dude... The people who know already know, and the people who don't get it never will.... :-)

JR

C'mon, I hand form my own voice coil wire, using the same vintage equipment that Thomas Alva Edison himself used, hand pulp my own cones with a recipe handed down thru the millenia from an old Egyptian papyrus crafstman, and use nothing but the finest Finnish Birch trees to hand lay my own plywood for the cabinets.

;>)

John
 
Re: Growler and other subs

I dont get that, why would you get them at the first place if you dont need them or like them. Also that VAT you pay on any product anywhere so i dont see a problem there. If you are a registered business you claim that back at the end of the year.

I don't think it's a matter of need.
How would a potential buyer know whether they will satisfy requirements, how will that customer know if they like them, until they've heard them?
I've wanted to get a listen to a JTR rig.
I don't think youtube is a valid method to demo loudspeakers.
JTR seems to be manufacturer direct.
I know of no Canadian distribution network.
I don't think Jeff has been north of the 49th with any of his wares.
How would a potential buyer be able to hear them without buying them?
If the speakers don't do what the potential buyer wants, they've got to go back.

I'm not in the import/export business, but if a customer doesn't like the product, I don't think the customs and brokerage fees are refunded when the product is returned.
That could represent a significant investment in a product that doesn't do what the customer wants.
 
Re: Growler and other subs

I dont get that, why would you get them at the first place if you dont need them or like them. Also that VAT you pay on any product anywhere so i dont see a problem there. If you are a registered business you claim that back at the end of the year.


Do you get sales tax/VAT refunded on products you use (not resell) in Macedonia?

Laws must be very different there.
In the US, if it's for business use, not resale, you pay the tax.

(Import tax is based on a percentage of value like a VAT, but I believe it's in addition to VAT)
 
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Re: Growler and other subs

I don't think it's a matter of need.
How would a potential buyer know whether they will satisfy requirements, how will that customer know if they like them, until they've heard them?
I've wanted to get a listen to a JTR rig.
I don't think youtube is a valid method to demo loudspeakers.
JTR seems to be manufacturer direct.
I know of no Canadian distribution network.
I don't think Jeff has been north of the 49th with any of his wares.
How would a potential buyer be able to hear them without buying them?
If the speakers don't do what the potential buyer wants, they've got to go back.

I'm not in the import/export business, but if a customer doesn't like the product, I don't think the customs and brokerage fees are refunded when the product is returned.
That could represent a significant investment in a product that doesn't do what the customer wants.

This is Jeff's biggest hurdle IMO.
People can't hear them so they don't buy. Since people don't buy, they aren't many out there to hear. Chicken or egg.
Jeff drove a pair down and demo'd them in my house when I bought my 1st pair.
I was impressed with the sound AND the service. But I wouldn't have bought without hearing. I understand the sentiment completely.
Not offering a solution on your issue, just understanding. It's hard for a small business to get traction. Especially when the product is big and heavy.
 
Re: Growler and other subs

I know of a really capable CNC plywood milling shops in Toronto. Set up a contract manufacturer and build the product in-country. Not too complex a situation but once you get the ball rolling it should be profitable. Both countries have good IP, trademark and copyright laws so theft of design can be dealt with. (unlike China)
The only hard part is finding a trustworthy person to carry the project for you in Canada. -Which is something that every overseas manufacturer has had to face at one time.
 
I have 4 of the first generation Growlers. A local colleague had bought a pair and I went up to listen. I also heard them at the NYC sub shoot out.
He now has 6 of them and I rent a pair on occasion so I have 6. Running 3 per side of a PL6.0 really works well. A center cluster of 6 in a cardioid array is great.

I only wish there were side handles.


Sent from my iPad HD
 
Re: Growler and other subs

Do you get sales tax/VAT refunded on products you use (not resell) in Macedonia?

Laws must be very different there.
In the US, if it's for business use, not resale, you pay the tax.

(Import tax is based on a percentage of value like a VAT, but I believe it's in addition to VAT)

Here in Europe we have a free trade, so no Import tax on products made in Europe. Then you pay the VAT when you import it. And we do claim the VAT back. If the products is for trade, then the vat is payed buy the end customer, not by you anyway.
If the products in non EU then we have import tax. You then pay VAT on the sum of the product value and import tax. But in the goods are then re exported you can claim back the import tax too. PITA job but you can do it.
I dont get it why USA and Canada dont have a free trade?
 
Re: Growler and other subs

I dont get it why USA and Canada dont have a free trade?
We have NAFTA free trade agreement, which eliminated the *duty* tax applied for goods of North American origin. However we still have to pay HST/GST sales tax, along with brokers fees whenever anything is brought from the USA to Canada. Here in Ontario, that's 13% HST plus brokers fees. Yes, we can claim a refund at the end of the year, but who wants to wait that long?

This is why manufacturers who take the Canadian market seriously will find a distributor that will not only import and represent their products, but also perform any warranty repair work without having to send it back to the USA and the ensuing paperwork headache in doing so. This has a major bearing on the products I specify for my clients up here.