Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

S

Simon Eves

Sophomore
May 12, 2013
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So I'm mixing a show opening Friday on an Expression 3, which I've never used before today (I'm an X32 man, for better or for worse...)

I have RTFM'd, and I got further than I expected to in half a day, but I'm still stuck on a bunch of things...

1. It's running "v1.0 Build 9", which I'm guessing is pretty old, given that the current seems to be v1.6. How traumatic is upgrading, and is all the show data forwards compatible? (including all the other shows on there that they don't seem to want to lose... I guess they could be backed up to USB in case of catastrophe?)

2. Frankly nauseated at the idea of having to go back setting monitors by shouting and hand-signals, I tried hooking it up to my trusty Netgear WiFi router to use the VISI app, but I couldn't even get it to talk to the router (I tried both DHCP and Manual modes, even entering the MAC into the router to assign a particular matching IP, and also tried disabling HiQ, but nothing). From the website, it looks like you need the board to be on v1.6 to use the current VISI, but my router wouldn't even show the board as having an IP, and I couldn't find any indication in the board settings that it was actually connected or not. Is there a trick to this? Is it perhaps again the age of the board software?

3. No DCAs. OK. I could use Mix Buses, routing channels post-fader to the Bus but not LR, the Bus to LR, and then map the Bus fader(s) to spare positions on Bank A along with the channels? But I'd need a pair of buses for stereo. Can you map just one side of a linked pair to the surface and still have it fade both sides? Can you even link buses?

4. I need to control the FX Send Mute of one channel to two FX units simultaneously (reverb AND delay) while still having access to that channel's main fader (think Wizard of Oz voice swapping between FX'd and plain, although it's not that show!) Mute Groups only seem to be able to control primary channel mutes, and I couldn't otherwise find a way of having all the required controls on the surface at the same time. Can you map an FX send to a fader permanently? I couldn't make it do that. Is there any way to chain FX units, if I could only control one mute at a time?

All help gratefully received, thank you!

Simon Eves
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Simon,
#1. Update your software/firmware/ipad control software to the latest version available. Always back up all show files to a USB before upgrading. Download all attendant "what's in this version" files and read.
#2. Now you can make a meaningful list of what does not work and what you do not understand.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Steve Payne said:
Simon,
#1. Update your software/firmware/ipad control software to the latest version available. Always back up all show files to a USB before upgrading. Download all attendant "what's in this version" files and read.
#2. Now you can make a meaningful list of what does not work and what you do not understand.
Click to expand...

Understood 100%. Problem is, it's the house board in a rented space, and their main sound guy is away until tomorrow, so I didn't want to put his assistant in the position of having to authorize upgrading the software in his absence, if it wasn't strictly necessary. Obviously if it were mine, I'd upgrade, but it's not my call.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

...and I have the on-line manual for v1.6 so I know what should work. The only thing that looks relevant in terms of new functionality is the ability to set a mix bus as single-fader stereo, which would streamline my #3.

The current VISI app will only work with v1.6 anyway, so I'm going to have to get them to upgrade to get that.

The only one I'm really worried about is #4.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Simon Eves said:
So I'm mixing a show opening Friday on an Expression 3, which I've never used before today (I'm an X32 man, for better or for worse...)

I have RTFM'd, and I got further than I expected to in half a day, but I'm still stuck on a bunch of things...

1. It's running "v1.0 Build 9", which I'm guessing is pretty old, given that the current seems to be v1.6. How traumatic is upgrading, and is all the show data forwards compatible? (including all the other shows on there that they don't seem to want to lose... I guess they could be backed up to USB in case of catastrophe?)

2. Frankly nauseated at the idea of having to go back setting monitors by shouting and hand-signals, I tried hooking it up to my trusty Netgear WiFi router to use the VISI app, but I couldn't even get it to talk to the router (I tried both DHCP and Manual modes, even entering the MAC into the router to assign a particular matching IP, and also tried disabling HiQ, but nothing). From the website, it looks like you need the board to be on v1.6 to use the current VISI, but my router wouldn't even show the board as having an IP, and I couldn't find any indication in the board settings that it was actually connected or not. Is there a trick to this? Is it perhaps again the age of the board software?

3. No DCAs. OK. I could use Mix Buses, routing channels post-fader to the Bus but not LR, the Bus to LR, and then map the Bus fader(s) to spare positions on Bank A along with the channels? But I'd need a pair of buses for stereo. Can you map just one side of a linked pair to the surface and still have it fade both sides? Can you even link buses?

4. I need to control the FX Send Mute of one channel to two FX units simultaneously (reverb AND delay) while still having access to that channel's main fader (think Wizard of Oz voice swapping between FX'd and plain, although it's not that show!) Mute Groups only seem to be able to control primary channel mutes, and I couldn't otherwise find a way of having all the required controls on the surface at the same time. Can you map an FX send to a fader permanently? I couldn't make it do that. Is there any way to chain FX units, if I could only control one mute at a time?

All help gratefully received, thank you!

Simon Eves
Click to expand...
1. v1.0 is very old firmware, and you should update. I don't recall there being any problems with old show data, but regardless - you should update.

2. Try updating the firmware. VISI works great... I've never had a problem connecting. I just plugged in an Ethernet cable from my venue's existing LAN and it worked fine with no issues. No need for a dedicated router or network.

3. Mixes 9 through 14 can be switched to stereo, so there's no need to link mixes for stereo groups. Select the mix bus and go to the Output menu, where you can change the mix from mono to stereo. One annoyance - the main channel pans cannot be set to control pan within the stereo mixes/groups... you have to separately pan within each mix. I'm hoping Soundcraft updates firmware to include a post-pan pickoff to the stereo mixes eventually, so using the stereo mixes as audio groups works the way it should.

4. You can put any fader anywhere on any layer, including the FX faders. It's done in Fader Setup menu. The FX faders are in the stereo input dropdown (confusingly not listed as FX 1-4, but as stereo inputs 3-6, I think?).

Hope that helps!
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Sorry, just saw your post about the main sound guy being away. Ugh, that's frustrating!
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Hi Adam,

Thanks for all that.

Tonight after re-enabling HiQ (which I had disabled experimentally) and powering-up the router before the mixer, I was able to get it to connect to the router, and was very happy to find that the current version of VISI works just fine with "1.0 Build 9", at least to the level I need (just tweaking mix contributions and masters). The Artistic Director at the venue was so impressed, he said he would order an iPad! Meters don't work, but maybe that's something with my router (I did read that you have to enable UDP Port 3333 or something), and I can live without it.

I did the intermediate bus thing to fake DCAs, which seems to work well enough, although I had to use two buses (and two faders) for the stereo band mix, but it's close enough. I did hit something along the lines of the limitation you described, though, in that I had a pair of linked channels (stereo from a digital piano) which it didn't want to split automatically into the two mono buses (they both got a mono mix), although I was able to pan the two mixes into LR correctly. I un-linked the channels so that I could set their contributions to the buses independently (L to 1 only, R to 2 only).

For the FX thing, I decided that a single FX unit is fine (in the very amusing "Reverse" mode), and just flipping to FX4 and toggling the send on and back off is going to be fine. I'll have another go at mapping the FX masters or returns tomorrow, but what I have works well enough.

Because of all that, although the venue A2 and TD both agreed the board software needed updating, we all agreed it was probably not worth doing this week considering that I'd managed to solve or work-around all the issues. We'll run it by the A1 when he gets back later this week, and I'll maybe help them do it during strike.

All good. Thanks again.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Simon,

You can accomplish everything you want on the Expression.

Your grasp of using the Mix busses for like DCAs is correct. Note as others have said that Mix 1-8 are mono only busses, but Mix 9-14 are selectable between mono and stereo (by default they are set Mono).

Here are some tips:

- You MUST update your board to the latest firmware. If you don't do this, you are asking for trouble. Here is how: Format a USB stick on your computer using the FAT32 file system (not NTFS). Copy all of the files from the ZIP file to the USB stick (do not just place the ZIP file on the stick). After updating the console, I recommend formatting the SD card. Here is YouTube video that shows you how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZw6GV3hzaQ.
- Download the latest version of the VISI application. Its not as complete as the X32 remote app, but it works.
- Download the offline editor NOW! Its a great way to learn the board when its not in front of you.
- Read the new owners manual on the Soundcraft website (.http://usa.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=199).
- Watch the Soundcraft Expression videos created by Soundcraft on You Tube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...2FdeiK5rEFeoLs). Note that the Performer videos are also a good watch as the Performer is very similar to the Expression (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjK_mcW080M). The Performer has a high and low band parametric instead of the Expression high and low shelf EQ and a DMX controller. Otherwise its essentially the same.
- Bookmark the Soundcraft Si Expression page on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/SiExpression).
- One under used feature that may be helpful is that the Expression has 4 stereo Matrix busses. You can send any of the 14 Mix busses and the L/R and Mono/SEL to these busses (but not the channels directly). This is useful if you want to send the L/R to different locations speakers with different EQ and delay settings.

As Riley suggested, I recommend that you use your X32 until you have a solid grasp of the Expression.

Cheers,

Michael
 
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Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Riley Casey said:
Some knots are best untied with a sharp knife. Unplug the house soundcraft, plug in your behringer, run the show, plug the soundcraft back in.
Click to expand...

Sadly not an option as they have a MADI 32/8 stagebox for the band and wireless, which obviously isn't compatible with my X32, and neither of us have that long/wide an analog snake available, nor would there be anywhere tidy to run it.

But yes, I considered it! :)
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Michael Grimaila said:
You can accomplish everything you want on the Expression.
Click to expand...

The TD and A2 don't want me to upgrade the firmware. They agree it should be done, but two days out from opening is probably not the time to do it. The A2 admitted to me last night that the board has occasionally crashed, but they've done 14 shows with it in the last 18 months so it can't be that bad! If it *is* that bad, and they've just been lucky (or they're downplaying the crashing) don't tell me! :)

I use Matrix outputs all the time on my X32, but these guys don't use them. Their standard show set-up drives the house PA (three across the top, two subs, no front or rear fill) from LR through an older analog crossover (and additional EQ in the LR on the board!) and they have Mix 9-14 configured and wired for their upstage and band monitors.

It's not ideal, but this is a one-off event for me, so I can live with what I've got.

Thanks, everybody.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

In any case, back up the show/scene files. This should be SOP for any engineer on any digital desk.

I try for two backups before power off at end of night. If not able to, then I do as soon as I can.

The backup gets loaded on the home computer as soon as I can so I have the most recent show file available for the offline editor.


Sent from my iPad HD
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Yes, leave the firmware with repeated cases of crashes publicized by numerous users to avoid the risk of firmware updates causing new problems for your show. /sarcasm

Honestly I'd prefer a wiped board with the latest firmware to a perfect setup on a bad version. Hope everything went well.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Max Warasila said:
Yes, leave the firmware with repeated cases of crashes publicized by numerous users to avoid the risk of firmware updates causing new problems for your show. /sarcasm
Click to expand...

I told you not to tell me! :)

Like I said, you're preaching to the choir. The house crew didn't want me to mess with the board in the absence of the A1, and it wasn't my place to argue.

First three shows went just fine. Just three more next weekend, and yes, I did take a back-up of the show file home with me.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Simon Eves said:
I told you not to tell me! :)

Like I said, you're preaching to the choir. The house crew didn't want me to mess with the board in the absence of the A1, and it wasn't my place to argue.

First three shows went just fine. Just three more next weekend, and yes, I did take a back-up of the show file home with me.
Click to expand...

While I understand the reticence of the house crew, it works like this: I'm gonna update the firmware, if you don't let me do that I have to go to my client and explain to them that the venue's gear is not up to date and seek either a rental desk at the house's expense or we'll move the show.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Tim McCulloch said:
While I understand the reticence of the house crew, it works like this: I'm gonna update the firmware, if you don't let me do that I have to go to my client and explain to them that the venue's gear is not up to date and seek either a rental desk at the house's expense or we'll move the show.
Click to expand...

Tim, you play hardball. Something tells me Simon is too nice for that kind of thing.

I probably would have just look up what errors existed for that version and done everything I could to crash the console repeatedly so as to persuade the house crew, if I was gonna do anything.
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Max Warasila said:
Tim, you play hardball. Something tells me Simon is too nice for that kind of thing.

I probably would have just look up what errors existed for that version and done everything I could to crash the console repeatedly so as to persuade the house crew, if I was gonna do anything.
Click to expand...

I've been in a facility where exactly what I described, happened.

We've also been on the receiving end of this as a system provider, when a BE came in with a show file based on 10 day old firmware. "Update your firmware or I'll get a provider that will supply up to date mixers, at your expense."
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Wow. Yes, I guess I *am* too nice, but there certainly won't be any "pulling the show" or renting something else. This is a volunteer guest mix gig in community theatre for a show that is being re-mounted at this venue's request, and neither side is spending any money on gear they don't already have.

I guess if it had actually crashed on me at all, I'd be thinking differently, but it hasn't (so far!) and I'm willing to keep my head in the sand for this one-off experience and just hope to get through the last three shows and go home!

As I said earlier, the reticence was partly mine, as nobody here seemed willing or able to tell me for sure that my existing show file would work without *any* problem if I skipped 18 months of software updates in one go, the house crew sure as hell didn't know (it's their first and only digital mixer and I think they're all scared of it), and I wouldn't have had the time or inclination to rebuild the mix from scratch if it hadn't worked, as it took me long enough last week to wing it the first time!

If I had to do it all over again, I'd have insisted on an update on Day 1.

Actually, if I had to do it all over again, given what more I've learned, and not liked (*), about this board since Post #10, I'd have borrowed or rented an analog snake, made them deal with an ugly running of it, and used my X32 instead! :)

Hindsight is 20/20 as always.

(*) I'll save my review until I get a chance to check what does now work properly with the latest firmware, 'cos there sure are a ####-load of things that don't with 1.0 Build 9 (e.g. being able to solo more than one channel at once, or a mix bus at all!)
 
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Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Simon Eves said:
nobody here seemed willing or able to tell me for sure that my existing show file would work without *any* problem if I skipped 18 months of software updates in one go
Click to expand...

If somebody is yet willing to do that, then maybe I'll update it in the 90 minutes I have before Friday's show. Or maybe that would still be stupid! :)
 
Re: Help please! In at the deep end with a Soundcraft Expression

Oh, and of course the recommendation is to wipe the internal memory card when upgrading, which means I have to back up all 20+ old show files they apparently want to keep ("for reference"), but there doesn't seem to be any way of doing this short of loading and save-as-ing each one from MMC to USB in turn.

And none of them knew if they already had back-ups of them.

Sigh.
 
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