Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

There is no conflict between the notion of global warming and climate change. As a couple of degrees of global warming can (and will) increase the rate of evaporation and the humidity in the atmosphere, both climate changes and weather changes are a natural consequence since the weather systems get more "fuel" to work with.
The wisdom of using the climate as an excuse to throw the world into a deep economic recession that will eventually result in wars, civil unrest, the exodus of millions of people from poor areas, etc., can of course be debated. :evil:
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Per Søvik said:
There is no conflict between the notion of global warming and climate change. As a couple of degrees of global warming can (and will) increase the rate of evaporation and the humidity in the atmosphere, both climate changes and weather changes are a natural consequence since the weather systems get more "fuel" to work with.
The wisdom of using the climate as an excuse to throw the world into a deep economic recession that will eventually result in wars, civil unrest, the exodus of millions of people from poor areas, etc., can of course be debated. :evil:
Click to expand...

Yup... I'm paying my dues,,, a new record for most expensive at $5B and not finished yet "clean" coal power plant. The power plant has to use experimental technology because existing power generation industry technology can't meet government regulations. We got hit with a 15% rate increase already and it's not even making electricity yet. Cost over runs out the ya ya...

JR

PS: Yes they mention that if we could engineer climate control, it becomes a weapon to use and abuse... One guy said that US military used climate altering technology during Viet Nam war... Sounds like we got this handled. :-(
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Per Søvik said:
Did he also say the technology came from aliens held prisoners at Area51 :lol:
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No it was a civil discussion and they were all way past debating "if" and talking about the ramifications of different mitigation strategies. Not exactly a kool-aid drinking session, or rally for immediate action but abstract discussion of near future centuries. Mostly a group hug and pimping each other's books.

JR

PS: The Viet Nam climate thing was only mentioned in passing, matter of factly. Back in the '60s they probably seeded rain clouds in between B-52 sorties dropping block busters on the Ho Chi Minh trail. A couple ton ordinance was a local climate changer, at ground zero.
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

So these ground source heat pumps that have been freezing up?
Did they have engineering for the set ups? Or are they just WAGging?

The one we are installing is very scientific. As in, the engineer comes with a proposal.
The contractor counters with depth of trench/OSHA requirements.
The home owner counters with clearance from the tree/roots requirements.

Etc. The engineer is always very specific about depths, and lengths of runs, and makes sure that we are in line with window types, and all other build requirements, so that the HVAC will deliver as needed.

Also, I found it very interesting to hear him say that the house will not settle in temp wise for a couple of years.
This is because it is now artificially cold, from having the open pit in the winter. It will take the house/soil a while to get to equilibrium.

This also brings up another point from earlier in the discussion.
He (engineer) says that the ground temp will be the average of the outdoor temp from the year.
This indicates to me that in our case, the power is coming from the sun, and indeed, our tubes are 7' (2M) from the surface.
 
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Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Jack Arnott said:
So these ground source heat pumps that have been freezing up?
Did they have engineering for the set ups? Or are they just WAGging?

The one we are installing is very scientific. As in, the engineer comes with a proposal.
The contractor counters with depth of trench/OSHA requirements.
The home owner counters with clearance from the tree/roots requirements.

Etc. The engineer is always very specific about depths, and lengths of runs, and makes sure that we are in line with window types, and all other build requirements, so that the HVAC will deliver as needed.

Also, I found it very interesting to hear him say that the house will not settle in temp wise for a couple of years.
This is because it is now artificially cold, from having the open pit in the winter. It will take the house/soil a while to get to equilibrium.

This also brings up another point from earlier in the discussion.
He (engineer) says that the ground temp will be the average of the outdoor temp from the year.
This indicates to me that in our case, the power is coming from the sun, and indeed, our tubes are 7' (2M) from the surface.
Click to expand...

I can imagine there being huge variability due to local ground geology. Ground water or soil moisture will affect thermal conductivity. Near the surface the soil is like a RxC so like a low pass filter with lag (sorry I think in terms of electricity).. This time lag is useful to take advantage of the earth's thermal capacitance to use residual winter coolness in the summer and delayed summer heat in the winter.

You need to go something like 30' deep to get away from surface weather variation, and when you go deeper you start picking up heat from the core... This temp rise can be as small as 1 degree per 100 feet, so you can warming but not much cooling down thousands of feet.

=====
With a new build, I would be very tempted to go overboard on insulation to reduce the amount of heat/cooling you need. A fairly cheap incremental investment at that stage.

I doubt I am the only one with energy cost increases so expect it to keep going up. Of course you could get lucky and hit natural gas while drilling a water well. :)

JR

PS : I wonder if combining a septic system with heat extraction system has any merit. It might be nice to recapture some heat/cool from waste water. I wouldn't want to deal with service calls.
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Jack Arnott said:
So these ground source heat pumps that have been freezing up?
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There are basically two categories of ground to air, the surface type and the deep type. The surface type requires enough piping to spread the load and enough depth to get below the frost zone, allowing for extremes in terms of long periods of cold without snow coverage and the extra cooling from the heat-exchanger. The deep type involves drilling down as far as 1000ft. in the most extreme cases, and involves either circulating water in solid rock, or tapping into ground water.
You don't have to go very deep to get a stable 14C/57F, but digging to such a depth is not practical, so I think the rule of thumb is to try to get to something like 10C/50F as a winter low point. I guess the main engineering part here is to find the depth for the actual area and estimate the right extra margin needed, along with arriving at a proper estimate for area needed for the amount of energy that will be taken out. And margin costs money, so very tempting to allow for low efficiency when conditions are extreme. As John mentions, soil composition and humidity is very important for the heat conductivity, and there have been some big misses in areas where dry winters cause the ground-water level to have a significant seasonal drop, as well as the odd occasion where a nearby excavation has altered the local ground-water level.
With continually improving air-to-air exchangers, air-to-ground is probably becoming more of a long term investment proposition in areas where the geology is favourable.
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

John Roberts said:
PS : I wonder if combining a septic system with heat extraction system has any merit. It might be nice to recapture some heat/cool from waste water. I wouldn't want to deal with service calls.
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I was going to say that our HRV system will have a heat exchange, so as to not vent warm air outside. I also read an article recently about wasted heat from a shower. No one commented that this already exists. (TKS Rob)

I would think that the toilet waste would be excluded from the exchange, and the two would meet later. I am also wondering about the effectiveness of other sources, as we don't use a lot of hot water on our clothes. Mostly cold, and some warm.

I will now look into one of these. (Although I have heard that grey water systems, for the purpose of re-using for lawn watering are not allowed in our area. I don't know why this is.)
 
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Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

John Roberts said:
With a new build, I would be very tempted to go overboard on insulation to reduce the amount of heat/cooling you need. A fairly cheap incremental investment at that stage.
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Overboard is subjective, but yes, we are doing it up right.

There is 3" of foam (R21) around the foundation walls, and basement floor. This is because there is radiant heat in the basement also.
The footings are excluded, and I imagine they could be a substantial wick.

The outer walls of the main floor are 2x6, and the R value of the insulation there is 23. (Net 15, as the studs wick) (Slated for BIB, but I might change that to Roxul, tks for a tip on another post.)
Outside the walls will be a wrap of 3" foam. So the walls will be almost a foot thick after the drywall/stucko.

One other major thing we will do, after the house is framed, and windows in we will run a blower test.
We have a goal on air turnover rate. At this point we run smoke from the inside, and see where it is escaping, plug, and keep going till the goal is met.
The engineer from the HVAC has very specific products to be used, which are then stipulated by the architect.
Just got some PDFs in copied to me with specs on "Penetration Sealing Detail", and "Sill Sealing Detail".

The HRV system is to compensate for the fact that the air in the house will not turn over. To keep the oxygen levels safe.

Fairly cheap is also relative. This same architect has another build going on, and had similar techniques laid out. The family decided to forgo the extra 3" of foam as they think they will never recoup the cost. They are only a few years older than us. (Their house is also much more sprawling, instead of cubular, and their estimate for foam labor installation seems much higher than ours. Plus I get to put sweat equity into ours.) I also think I will never get back a lot of what is going in. But, some of that will have utility value. And, if we leave the house to a younger relative as planned, they will certainly reap the benefits.
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Jack Arnott said:
I was going to say that our HRV system will have a heat exchange, so as to not vent warm air outside. I also read an article recently about wasted heat from a shower. No one commented that this already exists. (TKS Rob)

I would think that the toilet waste would be excluded from the exchange, and the two would meet later.
Click to expand...

One area of concern I just discovered is not the sewer outlet but the vent stack itself
-when we got down to that -50 windchill recently the wind blowing across the top of the stack pulls heat out of it so effectively there was a heavy condensation line in our bathroom up the wall behind the toilet. I don't know if there's a heat management solution for vent stacks, but a wide-open 4" cast-iron pipe running from outside your roof down to the basement is a big deal!
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Craig Hauber said:
One area of concern I just discovered is not the sewer outlet but the vent stack itself
-when we got down to that -50 windchill recently the wind blowing across the top of the stack pulls heat out of it so effectively there was a heavy condensation line in our bathroom up the wall behind the toilet. I don't know if there's a heat management solution for vent stacks, but a wide-open 4" cast-iron pipe running from outside your roof down to the basement is a big deal!
Click to expand...

I guess local building codes and stuff come into play here, but there is a big difference just replacing the cast iron with plastic tubing, obviously not always very practical. I was told by my local plumber that I didn't even have to have a vent, that a valve to let air in was all that was required, but there was a risk if too many buildings in the same street did the same, because of potential pressure build-up. My solution for our small venue/studio with a single bathroom is a 2" PVC vent pipe. I would think that in some cases, one would at least have access to the top part of the pipe, where it goes through the loft, and even if one can't legally reduce the diametre, replacing the top 5 to 8 feet with a pvc tube and putting the right hat on it will reduce both the heat loss through air-echange and the heat loss from heat conductivity in the iron pipe.
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Craig Hauber said:
One area of concern I just discovered is not the sewer outlet but the vent stack itself
-when we got down to that -50 windchill recently the wind blowing across the top of the stack pulls heat out of it so effectively there was a heavy condensation line in our bathroom up the wall behind the toilet. I don't know if there's a heat management solution for vent stacks, but a wide-open 4" cast-iron pipe running from outside your roof down to the basement is a big deal!
Click to expand...
Unless your sinks and toilets are going glug glug then that heat is getting pulled up from the sewers, not your home.
Though the condensation itself would be a concern.

Jason
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Per Søvik said:
I was told by my local plumber that I didn't even have to have a vent, that a valve to let air in was all that was required, but there was a risk if too many buildings in the same street did the same, because of potential pressure build-up.
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Only true if you are on a municipal sewer system. If you have a private septic tank you'll end up venting sewer gas into your home through the traps if you close off the vent. Oh, and if you reduce the size of the vent you risk it becoming plugged with frost, ice or snow.
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Ron Kimball said:
Only true if you are on a municipal sewer system. If you have a private septic tank you'll end up venting sewer gas into your home through the traps if you close off the vent. Oh, and if you reduce the size of the vent you risk it becoming plugged with frost, ice or snow.
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Surely any septic tank will have venting from the tank, separated from the venting of the house sewer system? I can't ever remember seeing a tank without it. However, using a pvc pipe and a hat designed to reduce the effect of wind will surely reduce the problem, even with a 4" pipe.
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

While crude, it seems co-locating cold water inlet pipes and warm drain water outlet plumbing with thermal coupling between the two over some span underneath the house (like in a crawl space) might make a cheap thermal recapture system. Not as effective as a proper heat exchanger but might have some benefit for nominal cost. Probably need metal plumbing for this heat exchange span.

JR
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

John Roberts said:
Yup... I'm paying my dues,,, a new record for most expensive at $5B and not finished yet "clean" coal power plant. The power plant has to use experimental technology because existing power generation industry technology can't meet government regulations. We got hit with a 15% rate increase already and it's not even making electricity yet. Cost over runs out the ya ya...
Click to expand...

Apparently we are on our way into an ice age or rather a cold period. That ship that was stuck in the ice, apparently they were out to collect proof of global warming and was caught by ice that shouldn't be there unless......
 
Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Ron Kimball said:
I was told by my local plumber that I didn't even have to have a vent, that a valve to let air in was all that was required, but there was a risk if too many buildings in the same street did the same, because of potential pressure build-up. My solution for our small venue/studio with a single bathroom is a 2" PVC vent pipe. I would think that in some cases, one would at least have access to the top part of the pipe, where it goes through the loft, and even if one can't legally reduce the diametre, replacing the top 5 to 8 feet with a pvc tube and putting the right hat on it will reduce both the heat loss through air-echange and the heat loss from heat conductivity in the iron pipe.
Click to expand...

While "Studer" type vents work, there is no substitute for a minimum 3" vent at the end of the trunk line.

Edit.. I quoted the wrong post..
 
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Re: Incandescent Lightbulb "ban" 2014

Per Søvik said:
Apparently we are on our way into an ice age or rather a cold period. That ship that was stuck in the ice, apparently they were out to collect proof of global warming and was caught by ice that shouldn't be there unless......
Click to expand...

It's called winter... :) We humans have pretty short memory and attention spans.

JR
 
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