Indiana State Fair Stage Collapse

Re: Another Stage Collapse

Milt Hathaway said:
Someone on-site should have had a direct line to them, especially in light of the warnings.

However, warnings still mean "likely", not "absolutely", especially for a particular spot of land.

Oh, and "warnings two days prior"?? No. Watches, maybe, but not warnings. Percentages of likelihood? Probably. But for every percentage of likelihood there is an opposite percentage that says it ain't gonna happen. A "30% chance" (or whatever percentage they gave) means they don't know. Now his claiming that they did know for certain is BS.

"Our Leaders" can kindly keep their opinions out of our business, IMHO. It's not their job to keep us safe from ourselves.
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That's exactly how I know the procedure:

The person in charge is on direct line with weather guys, preferably services that cost substantial money, in addition army and naval services when they can be of help. This is to have as much information as possible. And there were some called-off shows, evacuated stages and stage areas because of much less severe conditions.

A 30% chance to fuck up is way too much to just keep a show going imho.

Yes, there may be a good chance that everything is going to be fine but what's the price?

After all we are putting off the second most unimportant thing in life, after football. Nobody is going to starve when there's no show, nobody is hurt.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Charlie Zureki said:
Hello Kristian,

In this case, the Stage was already in place and wasn't traveling with any one of the particular artists, as is with most festivals.

I'm guessing that other than some possible "specials" for the lighting crew, and a back drop or two...the lighting, sound and video gear was for everyone's use and not for any specific Act.
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I understand this, but it was a non-permanent structure, and what I meant is that the gear put in place for "everyone's use" has just grown and grown in proportion over the years. Perhaps we have reached a point where we need to rethink one of the following when using mobile structures:
a). Is the "normal" amount of gear reasonable or should we reconsider?
or
b). Are the mobile structures that have traditionally been used sufficient for the ever-increasing demands/wants/needs for gear?


Charlie Zureki said:
Hello Kristian,
So..your question regarding Stages/Roof comes down to size, strength, and mobility. I think that it's more than possible to design and build a large stage/roof combination, that's portable and can withstand extreme weather....but, I think at the "cost" of flexibility, which some will find "inconvenient".
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I'm also sure it's possible to design and build this, but if the "arms race of musical equipment" ensures every band playing outdoors finally ends up with something like "The Claw" the whole purpose of "mobile application" is almost a mute point as the promoter may as well put up a permanent structure and be done with it for the coming years.

Charlie Zureki said:
Hello Kristian,

The weather will ...as you say, continue to do what it wants, and of course, the only thing anyone can do is to be diligent in regards to monitoring the weather and to have safety procedures in place to protect the Attendees, Artists, and Crew. When there's even a hint at extreme weather, then these Promoters will need to call the Show.
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We're spoiled here when it comes to weather. We get cold but not very windy.

Anyway, I'd rather the business norm be to use structures and gear combinations that are able to withstand rough weather than the norm being to use stuff that is known to be "topple-prone" and relying on weatherwatchers to be alert enough the call it when it's time to tell people to scatter. The crashes that don't hurt anyone or cost lives still cost a lot of money.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Milt Hathaway said:
Oh, and "warnings two days prior"?? No. Watches, maybe, but not warnings.

"Our Leaders" can kindly keep their opinions out of our business, IMHO. It's not their job to keep us safe from ourselves.
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Hello Milt,

Yes, there's a difference between "watches" and "warnings"... some people may be aware of the literal differences, especially in areas where severe storms hit frequently, but, I'd wager that a lot of people don't know the difference. Fwiw... if I hear "warning" or "watch", and plan to be outside all day, I'll spend only a minute, thinking of a plan to find shelter if needed.

While, it's clear that people often take chances even when the skies turn dark, I meant that it's possible that there was this perceived notion among the attendees that the storm may pass-by because the organizers (leaders) did not demonstrate any concern of an immediate threat. (their time delayed announcement, being casual).

Leader's meaning...Show Promoter or Organizer...

Hammer
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Charlie Zureki said:
Hello Jack,

I'm not sure I understand the connection you're trying to make. These Artists have been discussing the idea of adding additional clauses to their Contracts that would give themselves the opportunity to make their performance contingent in regards to specific weather conditions. Basically, if certain weather conditions exist, they can bug-out of their performance without incurring lawsuits and/or penalties, unlike most contracts today that only cover the most extreme weather conditions or, when the Promoter calls the Show.

Production and road Crew will "carefully" almost never say No in regards to the Artist's requests...otherwise, they're often replaced by those that'll say Yes.

Cheers,
Hammer
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Hello Hammer,
Basically Kristian said what I was trying to say, better.

I am in favor of the artist condition. And we need someone more responsible than the promoter to cancel the show.

In this day and age of instant gratification, and quarterly (in this case weekly) profit sheets, we have lost sight of the long term.
It would seem to me wise to take a step back, and worry about doing things better, rather than bigger.

The last sentence says it all. "if we don't do it, right or wrong, someone else will."

Regards, Jack
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Jack Arnott said:
Hello Hammer,
Basically Kristian said what I was trying to say, better.

The last sentence says it all. "if we don't do it, right or wrong, someone else will."

Regards, Jack
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Kristian & Jack,

I thought that's what you were leaning to, but, I just wanted to hear it again to be certain.

I believe that if we're talking less gear....then, it'll lead to smaller shows....and I wouldn't want to see anyone forced into that restriction...for many reasons.

If we were to depend on permanently built structures and doing away with temporary structures.... I'd think that the whole industry would take a huge hit in ticket sales, contractors would be hit, local hands,road crews, rentals, etc....all taking a hit . The idea of these large, temporary, roof structures is because there's too few permanent structures, and not enough in consistant sales to justify the investment in the permanent structures. With these temporary structures, they can be moved to where and when they are needed. (I know that you both know these facts, but others may not)

In regards to eveything else, I agree... I think that although most of the current Roof designs are sufficient for "normal" weather conditions, I can imagine a bigger, stronger, roof standard coming..whether self imposed, of industry demands, or of Governmental intervention.

I hope that it's self imposed.

Cheers,

Hammer

ps.... I'm wondering what effect it might have on a structure if, instead of using wire rope on a 45deg angle for the vertical truss tie downs, using the same size truss and then running truss under the stage to another truss on a 45 deg angle...back again to the vertical towers (on the other side of the stage)
Pyramid shaped...but with the peak cut off (ending at the roof line) Maybe, Phil could model this with Statistics?
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Charlie Zureki said:
ps.... I'm wondering what effect it might have on a structure if, instead of using wire rope on a 45deg angle for the vertical truss tie downs, using the same size truss and then running truss under the stage to another truss on a 45 deg angle...back again to the vertical towers (on the other side of the stage)
Pyramid shaped...but with the peak cut off (ending at the roof line) Maybe, Phil could model this with Statistics?
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One strong benefit of buttresses over guy wires is that they provide strength in tension and in compression. I would think it would be massively stronger. Tie the buttresses to the climbing blocks on beefy hinges, and then pin them to your under-stage cross members once the roof was at height. Or even just to crossmembers that formed a triangle with the bottom of the upright.

Has worked well for cathedrals that sure look like they should have blown down by now.

I'm still baffled at the lack of cross-bracing cable, though.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Jack Arnott said:
Politicians, promoters, crew chief?
Who are these mysterious "in quotes" people you are ragging on.

Regards, Jack
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This:

Charlie Zureki said:
I think a lot of the crowd had blindly put their faith in the hands of the Show's organizers when the show wasn't publicly cancelled. After all...this was a STATE FAIR, our leaders are supposed to have OUR best interest at heart....right?
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Apparently I read it differently than he meant it.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Milt Hathaway said:
A whole bunch of "Listen to me! I knew this was gonna happen!" 20/20 hindsight right there. Where I live watches and warnings seldom mean anything will actually happen at your particular location. I've also been involved in an incident where zero watches or warning were issued and a clear-air gust front blew through a downtown festival injuring a few people and shutting down the remainder of the weekend event. After a while of hearing them cry wolf it's no wonder that people will ignore it. Now this guy comes out pointing fingers mainly to save his industry's collective ass.

I do like the after-the-fact animated radar graphic he includes. I wonder if anyone with any power to shut down the event saw anything like that. Apparently the Weather Channel didn't have that radar data to share during their followups of the past few days. I also wonder why-when given that level of radar data-someone with the weather service didn't warn the authorities of EXACTLY what was headed to the fairgrounds. That radar not only shows existing precip and particulate, it will also calculate wind speeds. Notification of these facts might have been influential enough to get evacuations moving faster.

"We warned you that it might happen." is a cop-out.
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I think what the various weather guys are saying is "the data was there, why didn't you look at it and act upon it?"

The "after the fact animations" are, in fact, available in near-real time (sweeps updated every 5 min for "free" customers) on NOAA and weatherunderground.com. Other sites and services can give you 1 minute updates with each sweep archived and included in animation.

I'm not a meteorologist but I've lived in the Central Plains, on and off, for 30 years. The situation in Indy screams "cancel NOW" like few others... and I've been the 'bad' guy telling a promoter that his show was about to get hit with a storm of biblical proportions only to have Law Enforcement contradict me with old or inaccurate weather info. The last time that happened it took 2 days to get our gear out of the mud and water.

Have fun, stay safe.

Tim Mc
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Lee Dickinson said:
I'm still baffled at the lack of cross-bracing cable, though.
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in a professionally engineered design, often when there are no cross-braces there's a good reason for it.
not knowing anything about the design of this structure I would guess that A: the guy lines form all of the cross-bracing that is required (the vertical truss members should never move until the tornado hits, so they will do their job supporting the vertical load just fine without additional bracing)
and B: any cross-bracing from the roof to the vertical trusses would mean that in the event that there IS some lateral sway now you've made part of the vertical rigid and the sway needs to be absorbed by whatever is left. whereas before the entire vertical could bend a bit to absorb the sway.

* I'm not a stage designer, but these are just things that come to mind as possible reasons. guy lines and the peaked roof ARE the cross-bracing in this structure. sometimes it's hard to see the forest because all these trees are in the way..

Jason
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

The cross bracing isn't so much for stability against inclement weather (although it helps), it's to improve the load bearing capabilities of the structure by keeping the vertical support members from bowing under load.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

I have been thinking for days about how this should change what I am doing as a band engineer. I am not a stage provider, nor do I want to try to second guess either the build, or the design, in the short time I have to prepare for a festival show. I also don't think it is really reasonable for me to keep any longer range eye on the weather during show time (By longer range I mean responding to conditions farther out than "holy shit that sky looks ..." or 'the lightning is getting closer" or" I can't see the stage through the rain anymore").

The best I can come up with is to make sure I ask during the advance with both the promoter and the provider:
1. What plan do they have for inclemate weather?
2. How are they going to monitor the weather?
3. Who is responsible for calling the show?

At best, I should know how prepared the staff is, and at worst, I should know when I need to take extra steps to protect myself and my band. Although my masters degree included metereology, and I have been an outdoor person my entire life dealing with extreme weather, the disjointed nature of festival touring as we race 6-10 hours in this direction or that, means I have absolutely no feel for local conditions when I actually get on the ground at a show. I often have no clue what the weather will be or how it might change.

At this point, that is the best I can come up with.
 
Re: Today it Continues in Belgium

In time they'll tell us what happened, or what they think happened. This, like Pukkelpop are weather anomalies. All us humans are fucking up the planet. And the planet is going to kick our ass long before we destroy the planet. For me this is like when an airliner that has completed thousands of flights, then is downed by something that no one could have predicted. Both of these gigs were the real deal and they were toppled by things we probably aren't going to be able to control.

Dave
 
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