Indiana State Fair Stage Collapse

Re: Indiana Stage Fair Stage Collapse

Rob Timmerman said:
If only there were some way to receive alerts of impending severe weather, instead of having to constantly check the weather. Perhaps the government could set something up?
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They do, it's called NOAA Weather Radio, transmits weather coverage 24/7, all over the country, in English and Spanish, and they get the severe weather warnings 3 to 5 seconds before even broadcast TV or Radio.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Milt Hathaway said:
Then again, the cause was outflow winds that apparently didn't show on radar
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Bullshit, I can see the outflow boundary even on the radar app I have on my phone that I bought for $6. Gibson Ridge Level 2 is an $80 piece of software. Unless this was a micro burst, and the cell collapsed right on top of the festival, they would have seen something on radar.

These kinds of events are becoming all too common these days, and with the technology and communications we have available, there's little excuse for such a tragic loss of life.

The mantra of "the show must go on" is absolutely fucking retarded. I've been involved in too many of those myself this past year. People forget that what we do is not a mission critical endeavor, it's a luxury, and there's no reason to be taking chances with peoples lives just to make a few buck for a concert or theatre show. Mark my words, it won't be long before Congress gets involved and starts "regulating" our industry because of these kinds of tragedies.
 
Re: Indiana Stage Fair Stage Collapse

Dave Stevens said:
In the midwest when the siren sounds that means a twister is on the ground. They do break in to TV and radio with emergency broadcast messages.
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In my neck of the woods, warning sires are sounded in cases of possible tornado formation, funnel clouds, and wall clouds, really any indication on radar that there is rotation of any kind, whether a tornado has actually touched down or not.

From the pics that I've seen, it looks like the concert area took a direct hit from a massive wall cloud.
 
Re: Indiana Stage Fair Stage Collapse

Eric Simna said:
Do a google search for EAS LP1 and LP2 stations in your area to find out who you should really be listening to.
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In my area, I go straight to the source, the National Weather Service Warning Office in Tulsa, which has a Ham Radio station, operated by a trained storm spotter, who relays info directly from the NWS to the spotters in the field over a state wide UHF linked repeater system.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Justice C. Bigler said:
Mark my words, it won't be long before Congress gets involved and starts "regulating" our industry because of these kinds of tragedies.
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Hello,

From informed sources via phone calls from Nashville today...I've heard that there's a lot of Music Acts discussing these recent stage events. They're not happy, and am hearing that these Acts will be changing their Contracts soon to give them the ability to call the show.

Hammer
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Milt Hathaway said:
From the comfort of my couch, and with 20/20 hindsight, I'd say there are a couple of damning photos in that group.

I only see one guy on that DSR corner, and you can see where the truck strap they used at the ballast end snaps and flies towards the roof. I'm assuming the USR corner guy suffered a similar failure. That's preventable, folks.
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I talked to someone who was on site after the rig was assembled. He reported that there were at least 20 guy wires on the rig. Don't believe everything you see - and don't - in a photo.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Charlie Zureki said:
Hello,

From informed sources via phone calls from Nashville today...I've heard that there's a lot of Music Acts discussing these recent stage events. They're not happy, and am hearing that these Acts will be changing their Contracts soon to give them the ability to call the show.

Hammer
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Hello Hammer,
I see it as a double edge sword. The bands keep trying to one up each other, and place crazy demands on production to make sure that they are louder, more sizzle than steak in the lighting/visual/video end.
It is an unsustainable pyramid scheme.

Production, promoters, etc, start needing to say no to bands too.

Regards, Jack
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Charlie Zureki said:
Hello,

From informed sources via phone calls from Nashville today...I've heard that there's a lot of Music Acts discussing these recent stage events. They're not happy, and am hearing that these Acts will be changing their Contracts soon to give them the ability to call the show.

Hammer
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I have followed this topic both on PSW and here and have held my silence as I have no input on the actual staging part of the discussion.

However, we are now into the music business aspect of this tragic event and I do have some input.

This and similar events of recent past raise a very good question IMO:

"Have today's acts come to expect a level of production that warrants a size of stage that cannot realistically be both mobile and safe to use under weather conditions that are realistic to expect at events?".

As we know, the weather will continue to do what it wants.

So, if the answer to the question is "yes" then we need to decide what needs to come out of the equation:

- Size of production.
- Mobile.

Either one will have great impact on the top level of the music business.

My thoughts go out to all affected by this, including the owners of the gear and the hands that put it up - they must be going through hell regardless of whether it was done by the book or not.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Jack Arnott said:
Hello Hammer,
I see it as a double edge sword. The bands keep trying to one up each other, and place crazy demands on production to make sure that they are louder, more sizzle than steak in the lighting/visual/video end.
It is an unsustainable pyramid scheme.

Production, promoters, etc, start needing to say no to bands too.

Regards, Jack
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Hello Jack,

I'm not sure I understand the connection you're trying to make. These Artists have been discussing the idea of adding additional clauses to their Contracts that would give themselves the opportunity to make their performance contingent in regards to specific weather conditions. Basically, if certain weather conditions exist, they can bug-out of their performance without incurring lawsuits and/or penalties, unlike most contracts today that only cover the most extreme weather conditions or, when the Promoter calls the Show.

Many existing contracts do not deal with specific conditions, and are loosely worded in terms of safety of the performer, work conditions, stage conditions, etc...

And...as far as I know, depending on the "weight" of the Artists, many Promoters do say NO to the Artist's, (usually in booking Negotiations) in regards to higher production demands in complex Show staging and gear. Most of these issues are worked-out in the booking process.

Production and road Crew will "carefully" almost never say No in regards to the Artist's requests...otherwise, they're often replaced by those that'll say Yes.

Cheers,
Hammer
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

kristianjohnsen said:
I have followed this topic both on PSW and here and have held my silence as I have no input on the actual staging part of the discussion.

However, we are now into the music business aspect of this tragic event and I do have some input.

This and similar events of recent past raise a very good question IMO:

"Have today's acts come to expect a level of production that warrants a size of stage that cannot realistically be both mobile and safe to use under weather conditions that are realistic to expect at events?".

As we know, the weather will continue to do what it wants.

So, if the answer to the question is "yes" then we need to decide what needs to come out of the equation:

- Size of production.
- Mobile.

Either one will have great impact on the top level of the music business.

My thoughts go out to all affected by this, including the owners of the gear and the hands that put it up - they must be going through hell regardless of whether it was done by the book or not.
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Hello Kristian,

In this case, the Stage was already in place and wasn't traveling with any one of the particular artists, as is with most festivals.

I'm guessing that other than some possible "specials" for the lighting crew, and a back drop or two...the lighting, sound and video gear was for everyone's use and not for any specific Act.

So..your question regarding Stages/Roof comes down to size, strength, and mobility. I think that it's more than possible to design and build a large stage/roof combination, that's portable and can withstand extreme weather....but, I think at the "cost" of flexibility, which some will find "inconvenient".

The weather will ...as you say, continue to do what it wants, and of course, the only thing anyone can do is to be diligent in regards to monitoring the weather and to have safety procedures in place to protect the Attendees, Artists, and Crew. When there's even a hint at extreme weather, then these Promoters will need to call the Show.

Hammer

fwiw...someone mentioned the "claw" in regards to extreme weather... based on the design, I'd find it difficult to believe that anything short of a direct hit from a Tornado strength wind could cause it to topple over.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Justice C. Bigler said:
Bullshit, I can see the outflow boundary even on the radar app I have on my phone that I bought for $6. Gibson Ridge Level 2 is an $80 piece of software. Unless this was a micro burst, and the cell collapsed right on top of the festival, they would have seen something on radar.
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Did you see it on this particular storm? The Weather Channel has shown the radar images from this event a number of times in the past few days, and the gust front does not become visible until it is right on top of the area in question. Combine that with the horizontal speed of this line of storms and I begin to understand how this could have come as a surprise to those in charge at the fair. Radar gave the illusion that there was more time to clear the area.

While we're on the subject: By far the best iPhone radar app I have found is RadarScope. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/radarscope/id288419283?mt=8 It gets all available radar product (including velocity products) from NOAA radar stations. Combine that data with some knowledge of storm activity (SkyWarn classes are a good thing here) and you've got a good handle on what is going on in the air around you.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Rob Ottaviano said:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/weat...s/indianapolis-tragedy-not-a-fluke_2011-08-15
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Thanks for posting this link Mr. Ottaviano... this guy has the courage to speak the truth.

fwiw.... I've been very bothered by the fact that the Governor, the Sheriff, and the Promotion/Organizer lady...seemed to tell the same story the first night, in their press conference... (paraphrasing) "oh, this high wind was unpredicted or unexpected" and it's "a terrible tragedy" .... "we took action" .... and "thank goodness for the kind, and loving spirit of those that assisted in the rescue of those affected".....

While I do commend those that helped in the rescue of the injured....I found this "spin", this deflection of office, disgusting to those that were injured or the memories of those that were killed.

Hammer
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

One complicating aspect is that many people, including myself sometimes, only give casual thought to what the weatherman says. People often complain about how inaccurate weather forecasting is.

What should be more widely communicated, is that our ability to predict severe weather events in the hours to minutes before, and locate nasty storms is quite good. I'm reminded of when a (locally) famous and beloved weatherman, Joe Denardo from Pittsburgh visited my school when I was young. One of the students asked "Mr. Denardo, can you really predict the weather? Isn't that like telling the future?" Joe's answer was simple... as far as long term forecasting goes (several days to weeks out) it's mostly a guess based on models. As for short term forecasting (tomorrow, and more specifically the next few hours) it's pretty accurate globally. I.e. over the forecast area, if they say there is a chance of rain or a thunderstorm, somewhere in that area it will happen. As for locally specific events tornadoes and severe weather is about all you can count on, so heed the warnings.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Rob Ottaviano said:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/weat...s/indianapolis-tragedy-not-a-fluke_2011-08-15
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A whole bunch of "Listen to me! I knew this was gonna happen!" 20/20 hindsight right there. Where I live watches and warnings seldom mean anything will actually happen at your particular location. I've also been involved in an incident where zero watches or warning were issued and a clear-air gust front blew through a downtown festival injuring a few people and shutting down the remainder of the weekend event. After a while of hearing them cry wolf it's no wonder that people will ignore it. Now this guy comes out pointing fingers mainly to save his industry's collective ass.

I do like the after-the-fact animated radar graphic he includes. I wonder if anyone with any power to shut down the event saw anything like that. Apparently the Weather Channel didn't have that radar data to share during their followups of the past few days. I also wonder why-when given that level of radar data-someone with the weather service didn't warn the authorities of EXACTLY what was headed to the fairgrounds. That radar not only shows existing precip and particulate, it will also calculate wind speeds. Notification of these facts might have been influential enough to get evacuations moving faster.

"We warned you that it might happen." is a cop-out.
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Milt Hathaway said:
A whole bunch of "Listen to me! I knew this was gonna happen!" 20/20 hindsight right there. Where I live watches and warnings seldom mean anything will actually happen at your particular location. I've also been involved in an incident where zero watches or warning were issued and a clear-air gust front blew through a downtown festival injuring a few people and shutting down the remainder of the weekend event. After a while of hearing them cry wolf it's no wonder that people will ignore it. Now this guy comes out pointing fingers mainly to save his industry's collective ass.

"We warned you that it might happen." is a cop-out.
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Hello Milt..

This guy..Tim Ballisty, works for the Weather Channel, not the NOAA, he is not the local Indianapolis News station weatherman, nor does he work for the Indianapolis Weather Service.

I don't think he came forward a few days later "to save his industry's collective ass"....or anything else. His ass was NEVER on the line, neither was his industry's. Their only job is to try and accurately predict the weather. These weather broadcasters cannot be responsible for each and every person, whether they've seen or heard the weather broadcasts or not.

It's a crap-shoot as to whether someone will consider their warnings. ...As you've admitted.

He (or his co-workers) report the weather conditions for all parts of this Country, and most, all of the World. The Graphics from his article were not generated by him or anyone associated with him personally, but, by the NOAA. Is it possible that it took a couple of days to get those graphics from the NOAA after the fact..?

As the article states...the whole area had been warned of a severe thunderstorm warning ...for at least two days prior, and for the whole day leading up to the incident. The Promoters knew... but, decided to chance it....like many people do.

I think a lot of the crowd had blindly put their faith in the hands of the Show's organizers when the show wasn't publicly cancelled. After all...this was a STATE FAIR, our leaders are supposed to have OUR best interest at heart....right?

Why do you think that the Weather Service has the responsibility to contact anyone directly regarding an approaching storm? Do you believe they have the manpower...after all, they are BROADCASTING WARNINGS.

Hammer
 
Re: Another Stage Collapse

Charlie Zureki said:
Why do you think that the Weather Service has the responsibility to contact anyone directly regarding an approaching storm? Do you believe they have the manpower...after all, they are BROADCASTING WARNINGS.

Hammer
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Someone on-site should have had a direct line to them, especially in light of the warnings.

However, warnings still mean "likely", not "absolutely", especially for a particular spot of land.

Oh, and "warnings two days prior"?? No. Watches, maybe, but not warnings. Percentages of likelihood? Probably. But for every percentage of likelihood there is an opposite percentage that says it ain't gonna happen. A "30% chance" (or whatever percentage they gave) means they don't know. Now his claiming that they did know for certain is BS.

"Our Leaders" can kindly keep their opinions out of our business, IMHO. It's not their job to keep us safe from ourselves.
 
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