Infocomm???

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Infocomm???

Isn't the boss of this web site in the loudspeaker driver business?
Are you dissing the boss? Taking on the head cheese?
Biting the hand that feeds us? Quite bold.

I don't know that Bennett would be called "the boss" of the website-just one of the originators/owners etc.

And he does not pay me-so he is not my boss.

People are allowed to exchange ideas-as long as they are factual.

And all the speaker driver manufacturers that we deal with are VERY HAPPY for line arrays-since it takes more drivers to do the same job.

But that does not make them better.

Just yesterday we did a "listening comparison" with another company. The photo is below. The target audience area was the building on the other side of the cove, about 700' away. You can't put delay towers in the middle of the lake (at least not cost effectively.)

The customer had already been told "Line arrays can't do this".

WHich is funny-because a lot of the "folklore" behind line arrays is that they can "throw" the sound further-but in reality that is not the case.

I believe the site was on an old Indain burial ground-because both our and the other companies generators failed about 30 minutes apart. We each went out and rented more generators. What are the odds of that!

 

[David Sturzenbecher]

Re: Infocomm???

And all the speaker driver manufacturers that we deal with are VERY HAPPY for line arrays-since it takes more drivers to do the same job.

I am sure the driver manufactures don't mind every time you sell anything in the Jericho line...

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: Infocomm???

I am sure the driver manufactures don't mind every time you sell anything in the Jericho line...

You got that right.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: Infocomm???

But "line arrays" will be with us for awhile. My guess (based on historically how long it takes to change opinions/ideas) is that by 2030, the "line array" fad will have run its course. But the loudspeaker driver manufacturers DO NOT want this to happen. They are LOVING being able to sell more drivers to do the same job as fewer drivers-simply good business.

Isn't the boss of this web site in the loudspeaker driver business?
Are you dissing the boss? Taking on the head cheese?
Biting the hand that feeds us? Quite bold.

Line arrays are great for driver sales; but so are stadiums, the military, auditoriums, artificial reverb systems, nightclubs, cruise ships, cinema... and let's not forget that the PA systems of yesteryear weren't exactly light on transducers. If you want to make a lot of noise you need a lot of speakers. As a business reporting to stockholders (B&C is publicly traded) we don't care whether line arrays are trendy and/or great or not - as long as whatever is has our transducers in it. As a Sales Guy Who Cares A Lot About Good Audio I don't feel like we're in control at all of industry trends; just doing our best to make sure the folks designing to those trends, or maybe even creating them, consider our technology to be an important part of their design (which goes both ways, many of our most successful technologies emerged from a specific customer request). If I could wag the dog I'd have a much larger expense account, and probably an F458 Speciale. Which I'd happily let you drive.

If you want to be cynical, it's subwoofers that have been the best for us recently. One top performance 18" costs 2-4x what one of our flagship compression drivers or full range woofers does, so the demand for extreme LF is probably more responsible for sales figures in the last half-decade than anything else - just from my perspective.

If Danley were our customer, and it's not my place to say, I would be very proud to have their business. It's not every day that a new manufacturer springs up who achieves their level of success and does it with so many unconventional designs. But there are a lot of manufacturers I'm proud to have as customers, some of whom also don't make line arrays (or didn't until recently), and some of whom might argue that they invented the line array as we know it today. Those folks are innovating as well, even if they believe that for their customers that innovation must come at least partly in the form of a line array, and some of them are even trying to change our idea of what a line array even is and can do. We don't have a lot of customers doing the same old same old, you don't need the World's Best Transducers™ to do that, necessarily.

Visiting manufacturers, and being involved in their vision of the future is by far the best part of the job.. I have gotten to hear and see some really cool technology, often years before it makes it to market - and sometimes it never does. All our customers push the boundaries of audio in one way or another and it doesn't always make sense to try and sell those skunk works projects. If there's a loudspeaker version of the SR71 Blackbird then I have definitely flown in it. That is a privilege that I cannot put a price on.

As for the rest, I'm the boss of this website as much as the chairman of the Federal Reserve is in charge of the economy. And Dave Karol is the President or something, I dunno. Anyway, it's you guys who keep it interesting and being interesting is the only reason this place exists.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Infocomm???

I am sure the driver manufactures don't mind every time you sell anything in the Jericho line...

Especially the J5/Caleb.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Infocomm???

People are allowed to exchange ideas-as long as they are factual.

And all the speaker driver manufacturers that we deal with are VERY HAPPY for line arrays-since it takes more drivers to do the same job.

But that does not make them better.

I was looking for something else, and found that, and the way I read it was your rant against line arrays was spilling over into speaker manufacturers/sellers.

I thought it was quite hilarious. Maybe it didn't come over that way. Sometimes my sense of humor does not make it to the internets.

Anyway, back to debunking line array.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Infocomm???

I was looking for something else, and found that, and the way I read it was your rant against line arrays was spilling over into speaker manufacturers/sellers.

I thought it was quite hilarious. Maybe it didn't come over that way. Sometimes my sense of humor does not make it to the internets.

Anyway, back to debunking line array.

Well let's jsut put it this way.

Take any line array layout/performance etc that you want-by any manufacturer. The exception would be the electronically steerable systems-that REQUIRE lots of interaction/cancellation in order to "work".

Now let's do a driver count.

Now let's design a system properly with a true "point source" system. Now let's do a driver count.

Guess who uses A LOT more drivers? Guess what system costs more? OF course the installers like it because they make more money-so often that "avenue" is pressed as the "best" way

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Infocomm???

People are allowed to exchange ideas-as long as they are factual.

First off, let me say that I in no way endorse line arrays over point source. I have no problems with any of your arguments about speaker design.
I am on your side. I have no problems with any of your facts. I love the DIY point source project that is going on here. I love even small things that are point source, like 5" coaxial speakers in a tiny box, that sound like a wall, instead of a point. I love Danley products. I do point source myself, in my own small way. I am a point source man.

I was in fact re-reading the thread, because I wanted to reference something that Tom had written, as it came up in a conversation I had earlier in the day, and wanted to clarify in my mind what he had written. (Factual)

What struck me funny (not odd funny, but ha ha funny)(I was giggling) was your logic, and presentation. TO ME it read that loudspeaker driver manufacturers are somehow driving the market. Part of some kind of problem, or conspiracy. Instead of simply supplying a demand. (This is where your "factual" broke down.) "But the loudspeaker driver manufacturers DO NOT want this to happen. They are LOVING being able to sell more drivers to do the same job as fewer drivers."

Kind of like XKCD #925, that concludes that cancer causes cell phones.

Sorry to drag you in Bennett, but to me, you are THE speaker component man, in North America, and I saw it as a poke at you. Striking my funny bone for a second time. As you are one of the people who bring us this wonderful place, to exchange factual ideas.

I probably did not convey this very well. I broke my rule (self imposed over a decade ago) (often broken) about not posting in August, when the heat has melted my brain.

August, the most grumpy of months, (empirical, not factual), as observed by me. Also over a decade ago.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Infocomm???

If you want to be cynical, it's subwoofers that have been the best for us recently. One top performance 18"..........

NO! I don't want to be cynical. I want to go positive. Look at your 18" speaker compared to the industry standard 20 years ago, the JBL 2241.
Your current 18" is better in so many ways. It has WAY more power handling, higher sensitivity, while going lower in frequency, and I'm guessing has lower power compression, to boot. And when you compare what it costs, to what the JBL cost then, in today's dollars, it is a freaking steal. So much more total output. I'm also guessing it does this in a smaller box than the 2441.

It's as if your speaker driver manufacturer is doing their customers a service by giving more total output for the same money, instead of:
"They are LOVING being able to sell more drivers to do the same job as fewer drivers."

 

[Mark DeArman]

Re: Infocomm???

I probably did not convey this very well. I broke my rule (self imposed over a decade ago) (often broken) about not posting in August, when the heat has melted my brain.

August, the most grumpy of months, (empirical, not factual), as observed by me. Also over a decade ago.

Awesome, I like this ;-) I also have to agree that as I was reading through the thread, I was getting ready to call Coast to Coast AM about the conspiracy.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Infocomm???

Now let's do a driver count.
(

You are putting me in the uncomfortable position of defending line array. Kind of like when I have to defend Kanye West on Facebook, just to prove someone has a logic fail.

IF loudspeaker driver manufacturers are indeed driving the market, as you posit, wouldn't they be supporting the old model?
An old industry standard Clair box had 10 components in it (IIRC). The line array box from Coda that was posted on this forum recently has four. Two cones, and two planar drivers. Not a very good business model if you are out for world domination through overselling speaker components to unsuspecting clients.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Infocomm???

What struck me funny (not odd funny, but ha ha funny)(I was giggling) was your logic, and presentation. TO ME it read that loudspeaker driver manufacturers are somehow driving the market. Part of some kind of problem, or conspiracy. Instead of simply supplying a demand. (This is where your "factual" broke down.) "But the loudspeaker driver manufacturers DO NOT want this to happen. They are LOVING being able to sell more drivers to do the same job as fewer drivers."

.

I did not mean it like that at all.

All I meant was that loudspeaker driver manufacturers are loving to sell lots of drivers for line arrays.

Not that they are driving the "trend", but they certainly don't want it to end.

So they are not about to "endorse" something that uses fewer drivers to achieve the same result.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Infocomm???

You are putting me in the uncomfortable position of defending line array. Kind of like when I have to defend Kanye West on Facebook, just to prove someone has a logic fail.

IF loudspeaker driver manufacturers are indeed driving the market, as you posit, wouldn't they be supporting the old model?
An old industry standard Clair box had 10 components in it (IIRC). The line array box from Coda that was posted on this forum recently has four. Two cones, and two planar drivers. Not a very good business model if you are out for world domination through overselling speaker components to unsuspecting clients.

But if you look at the "lower end" of the scale-where people take out 4 or so line arrays for a couple of hundred seat rooms where back in the 80s they would have used a double scoop (2 drivers), a 4560 (1 driver) and a single HF horn per side.

Oh, and the line array system would ALSO need to add subs. so that is more drivers.

It all depends on how you look at it.

It is easy to make all kinds of arguments when you only look at one aspect or point. But there is more to it than that.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Infocomm???

But if you look at the "lower end" of the scale......

Why do you even care about the lower end?
You work for a preeminent speaker company, who is raising the bar, doing all kinds of cool stadium installs.
And high end music systems.

The "lower end" is lowest common denominator, over which you and I have no control, and they are ankle biting.
They show scripted "reality TV" shows on their televisions, and serve Coors light, and reheated frozen hamburgers.
They have bad bands play there, and presumably all the patrons go home for bad drunken sex with each other.

Are you going to try and fix America's insatiable appetite for bad food, bad beer, and bad TV too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7N8fG8gfZY

Also you are romanticizing the past. The 4560 with an E130 is nasty stuff.

edit: One might assume from my rant that I am anti bad drunken sex. I am pro bad drunken sex, as long as it is after good music, through a good system.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: Infocomm???

Sorry for the following aimless rant -

I for one do not think a loudspeaker manufacture can drive the market any more that a wheel maker can drive the car market.
i do see it following trends rather quickly, and as a trend develops many more pile on. Next you know artists, promoters all want the next big thing. Like vari-lites, once 12 was all there were in a show, now they are about all that is used. Are the light shows better for it???? Some are spectacular and some look terrible. Too damn much flashing. I came to HEAR the band, hello.

Following trends will sell products, but does it further the science and physics of the art? Does it get everyone closer to a perfect speaker or is it just sell sell sell?

I've just done a small show outdoors. In the past I would have used 4 or our split S4 copy boxes a side. This time I used 2 single 18's and 2 12/1 inch cabinets a side and it had plenty of leg room to get louder without failure. Something's have gotten better in those boxes. 30 years ago there would have been a few trips to get phrams or cone kits after a show like this one.

Speakers have gotten better. Ideas have made better use of these better components. All that is left is to conceal some secret smoke for the salesmen to use at the trade shows in the hopes that the hype will sell their system. Once you have a few out the door suddenly everyone wants it. Keeping up with the Jones's is alive and well in pro audio. And doubly so in line arrays.

The one thing I am missing at a concert today is a connection with the band sonically. Sound used to feel like it was all around you, today it sounds like you are being squirted by a hose.

Say what you will Ivan, I sat in front of 40 S4's night after night in every arena in the country and there is nothing that has made that experience less than great. To me line arrays are for sight lines and truck pack with fullness of sound a distant 3rd. I have heard only a few systems in the last 20 years that have matched or bettered them. And Danley has made 3 of them. I am excited to hear a touring rig made up of Toms stuff. I think the sonic connection will return.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Infocomm???

Awesome, I like this ;-) I also have to agree that as I was reading through the thread, I was getting ready to call Coast to Coast AM about the conspiracy.

I vote for a conspiracy involving loudspeakers, goats, and alien transvestite sheep. And Texas.

Okay, I was kidding about the goats...

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Infocomm???

Why do you even care about the lower end?
You work for a preeminent speaker company, who is raising the bar, doing all kinds of cool stadium installs.
And high end music systems.

.

Actually we have quite a few customers with our gear in 50 seat rooms.

When you can use a single cabinet (with a single driver) to cover the whole space, why do you need more.

MANY MANY spaces have our systems in them that are either single cabinets or a center full range with exploded side fills (for wide rooms)

The line arrays guys would want to use 4 hangs or more of 6 or 8 boxes each.

The result is it costs more-worsens sight lines-and sounds worse.

But as long as they get a "LINE ARRAY" they are happy.

It quite amazing how many people simply want a "line array" and the only reason is that they think it is cool and popular.

They have no idea any advantage or disadvantage-as long as they get a "line array" they are happy.

That is EXACTLY the reason so many are jumping on the "bandwagon".

I think it is going to be sooo funny in a couple of years when people start to realize they have been "fooled" and start looking at a more cohesive system.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Infocomm???

Actually we have quite a few customers with our gear in 50 seat rooms.

Your idea of a low end customer may vary from mine..

When you can use a single cabinet (with a single driver) to cover the whole space, why do you need more.

MANY MANY spaces have our systems in them that are either single cabinets or a center full range with exploded side fills (for wide rooms)

The line arrays guys would want to use 4 hangs or more of 6 or 8 boxes each.

The result is it costs more-worsens sight lines-and sounds worse.

But as long as they get a "LINE ARRAY" they are happy.

Sorry that is the nature of dealing with human (lemming) customers. At Peavey it took me a few years but I finally learned it was far easier to give them what they wanted then educate them to want what i wanted to sell them.

You have a rough road to educate customers against the conventional wisdom... not easy without large advertising budgets, but keep trying.

It quite amazing how many people simply want a "line array" and the only reason is that they think it is cool and popular.

They have no idea any advantage or disadvantage-as long as they get a "line array" they are happy.

That is EXACTLY the reason so many are jumping on the "bandwagon".

I think it is going to be sooo funny in a couple of years when people start to realize they have been "fooled" and start looking at a more cohesive system.

I hate to burst your bubble but they won't feel fooled. They will wonder where you guys were all these years. :-(

Good luck. Many of us are pulling for you to succeed.

JR