Infocomm???

Re: Infocomm???

Loudspeakers are the original poster boy for engineering trade-offs. The customer is always right, even when wrong, so when the customer wants to buy a line array, it is far easier to sell him what he thinks is a line array than educate him to why he shouldn't want an actual line array.

I was teasing ivan about the "point source line array" and respect TD and friends to make responsible engineering trade offs to keep that class of customers happy.

JR
 
Re: Infocomm???

John Roberts said:
Loudspeakers are the original poster boy for engineering trade-offs. The customer is always right, even when wrong, so when the customer wants to buy a line array, it is far easier to sell him what he thinks is a line array than educate him to why he shouldn't want an actual line array.

I was teasing ivan about the "point source line array" and respect TD and friends to make responsible engineering trade offs to keep that class of customers happy.

JR
Click to expand...
I arranged our "GO2" boxes in a line array "alignment"-as a joke. They are simple different model numbers stacked on top of one another.

Most people did not "get it" and thought it was a line array.

That just goes to show how much the marketing has warped peoples minds-and even sadder-how many people don't have a clue as to what a line array is.

How can we possibly expect those people to understand what the problems are, and why other solutions are better.

It is quite interesting how many people want a line array SIMPLY because they think it is "cool" or even worse-just to be able to use the words.

Somehow it makes them "feel better" about the system.

I have a feeling by the end of this decade (around 2020 or 2021) things will start to change and people will start to realize that they have been "deceived" and new (actually old) ideas will start to be more popular.

But "line arrays" will be with us for awhile. My guess (based on historically how long it takes to change opinions/ideas) is that by 2030, the "line array" fad will have run its course. But the loudspeaker driver manufacturers DO NOT want this to happen. They are LOVING being able to sell more drivers to do the same job as fewer drivers-simply good business.

By then I will be a "crusty 'ol fart" and will be able to look back and laugh at what happened the previous 20 years.

I could be completely wrong-but simpler is better-and having products work the way nature intended will provide better sounding results. Always think of simply dropping a pebble in a pond and how the waves radiate-vs multiple pebbles. Which is more pure?
 
Re: Infocomm???

John Roberts said:
the joke gained some traction..

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/danley_introduces_the_exodus_system_line_array/

JR
Click to expand...
There are a couple of errors in the article.

The XD62 (60x20) is the far field box and the XD96 (90x60) is the nearfield box. But in many cases a single XD96 would do both jobs just fine-depending on the area to be covered-the mounting height-the SPL needed etc.

Also Exodus is the 2nd book of the bible, not the second chapter.
 
Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
There are a couple of errors in the article.

The XD62 (60x20) is the far field box and the XD96 (90x60) is the nearfield box. But in many cases a single XD96 would do both jobs just fine-depending on the area to be covered-the mounting height-the SPL needed etc.

Also Exodus is the 2nd book of the bible, not the second chapter.
Click to expand...

How about the headline?

JR
 
Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
I arranged our "GO2" boxes in a line array "alignment"-as a joke. They are simple different model numbers stacked on top of one another.

Most people did not "get it" and thought it was a line array.

That just goes to show how much the marketing has warped peoples minds-and even sadder-how many people don't have a clue as to what a line array is.

How can we possibly expect those people to understand what the problems are, and why other solutions are better.

It is quite interesting how many people want a line array SIMPLY because they think it is "cool" or even worse-just to be able to use the words.

Somehow it makes them "feel better" about the system.

I have a feeling by the end of this decade (around 2020 or 2021) things will start to change and people will start to realize that they have been "deceived" and new (actually old) ideas will start to be more popular.

But "line arrays" will be with us for awhile. My guess (based on historically how long it takes to change opinions/ideas) is that by 2030, the "line array" fad will have run its course. But the loudspeaker driver manufacturers DO NOT want this to happen. They are LOVING being able to sell more drivers to do the same job as fewer drivers-simply good business.

By then I will be a "crusty 'ol fart" and will be able to look back and laugh at what happened the previous 20 years.

I could be completely wrong-but simpler is better-and having products work the way nature intended will provide better sounding results. Always think of simply dropping a pebble in a pond and how the waves radiate-vs multiple pebbles. Which is more pure?
Click to expand...

Ivan,

By 2030 we best be planning on mixing shows directly to whatever 2030 Bluetooth implants are installed in each patron's head.

I'm not really kidding. It makes sense that the market will eventually replace the heavy, expensive, unsafe (rigging AND osha hearing levels etc) with small and lighter once the technology is easy deployed. Especially if the objects that are heavy and expensive also reproduce 'non-perfect' results due to venue constraints.

Besides, video holograms will need to use the audio points.

I should probably plan on selling my trucks while they still have value.

Jason
 
Re: Infocomm???

John Roberts said:
How about the headline?

JR
Click to expand...
Yeah that also.

HOWEVER-it QUICKLY became evident that MANY MANY people have no idea what a "line array" is-what it looks like-the principals behind it, what is NOT a line array and so forth.

I would say a large majority simply think that if boxes are stacked on top of each other, they are a "line array".

They don't know why they want one-only that the name is "cool and popular".

This is evidenced by the social media comments and by talking to people at the show.

After this last week, it just reinforces my belief that most people can not tell you why a 'line array" is "supposed" to be better than some other source-just that you "should" be using one.

The marketing is doing well-------------

If you don't understand the basic principals, then how are you supposed to be able to make comparisons? Much less being able to not get mislead by the "hype".

It is real easy to draw "pretty pictures" of how the coverage works. To bad that in the real world it is not that way.

It is interesting the number of products that are "line arrays" that allow the user to "simply point the sound" to where they "think" it will go. Never mind the REAL interactions and pattern changes are NOT that they "think" is happening, but as long as they "think" something is happening-then it "must" be good. :((

It still amazes me as to the lack of basic understanding of how sound works in our industry-even among "professionals".
 
Re: Infocomm???

Jason Raboin said:
Ivan, I'm curious what you thought of the demo you attended at 3 pm on Friday.
Click to expand...
I will talk about that demo, but I don't know if it is fair to ask a direct competitor's opinion on another product, it may open him up to a lawsuit. However I would like to hear his opinion as well. (maybe I will have to make a trip up to Gainesville in the next few weeks)

My opinion was that it sounded good at the low and mid-levels for music, If you listened to the presenter talk and moved around while speech was going on it sounded like his voice moved up and down the array, that was the first time I had ever experienced that.
When the system was pushed it was not clear, I don't know if it was distortion or that it wasn't aligned with the subs or a combination. I did not like the sub's (again maybe because it wasn't aligned) I would much prefer their 700-hp.

Overall it was great for what it was, If it has to be a line array that's rider friendly I wouldn't be upset walking in a room and seeing that, I may be a little bias because the company that hires me most often has 16on order, so I went in knowing that I had to work with it weather I liked it or not and I'm not disappointed.


Ben
 
Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
Yeah that also.

HOWEVER-it QUICKLY became evident that MANY MANY people have no idea what a "line array" is-what it looks like-the principals behind it, what is NOT a line array and so forth.

I would say a large majority simply think that if boxes are stacked on top of each other, they are a "line array".

They don't know why they want one-only that the name is "cool and popular".

This is evidenced by the social media comments and by talking to people at the show.

After this last week, it just reinforces my belief that most people can not tell you why a 'line array" is "supposed" to be better than some other source-just that you "should" be using one.
Click to expand...
Welcome to marketing in the real world.

The art involved is giving the customer what they think they want, while also giving them what they need. There are not enough hours in the day to educate all of your potential customers so some artifice might be productive. This may be hard to stomach as "the only honest man in the speaker business". Properly done this will be a win-win giving customers a useful product that seems to meet their desires while meeting their needs.
The marketing is doing well-------------

If you don't understand the basic principals, then how are you supposed to be able to make comparisons? Much less being able to not get mislead by the "hype".

It is real easy to draw "pretty pictures" of how the coverage works. To bad that in the real world it is not that way.

It is interesting the number of products that are "line arrays" that allow the user to "simply point the sound" to where they "think" it will go. Never mind the REAL interactions and pattern changes are NOT that they "think" is happening, but as long as they "think" something is happening-then it "must" be good. :((

It still amazes me as to the lack of basic understanding of how sound works in our industry-even among "professionals".
Click to expand...
Seriously? While it is relatively straightforward to explain the concept of a focussed array's ability to put more heat onto the seats, which is good for preventing climate change, but discussing the signal integrity from that many sources is beyond the attention span of most customers so they may understand the benefit without grasping the cost or trade-off.

Marketing is hard work and not for the squeamish, while honest marketing is steering the customer to good solutions, not just your solution.

Good luck

JR


PS: Yesterday I googled "Danley Line Array" and I found a post I made back in 2013 suggesting a sham line array with a single point source cabinet. :-)
 
Re: Infocomm???

Jason Raboin said:
Ivan, I'm curious what you thought of the demo you attended at 3 pm on Friday.
Click to expand...
I can't really comment much (but I have some very strong opinions, not only what I heard musically-but also about what was said. let's just say I was about to pull out my "high waders")-but will say that on the Bluegrass cut the players must have been using felt picks that day------
 
Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
....

It still amazes me as to the lack of basic understanding of how sound works in our industry-even among "professionals".
Click to expand...

I cherry picked this last sentence to expand on a little. Sorry if it goes OT...

I've worked as a live sound engineer at the varsity level now for at least a couple of decades. I've done quite a lot of entertainment, but have lately moved to almost exclusively corporate events. In the process of doing this for a pretty long time i have acquired a fairly extensive knowledge base regarding how sound works. I'm not at the level of several of the system tuners that frequent these forums, but i certainly understand all the principles involved.

But the bottom line is that my clients [production companies] and their clients [large corporate event planners] and THEIR clients [Large corporations] really don't care how 'good' it sounds. At the end of the day, the same things that are most important today are the same things that were most important 20 years ago.

1. There can never be feedback

2. When a mic is supposed to work it MUST work. And when it's supposed to be off it MUST be off.

3. You must be able to understand what is being said in every seat in the room.

Past those three things, no really cares if it sounds the same everywhere, or the phase coherence is ideal, or whatever. If it sounds good enough it sounds good enough.

This has the consequence of elevating Sound guys [like myself] who excel at people skills and have good attention to detail over guys with amazing technical understanding that do NOT have these skills. And that can lead to a good number of 'Professional Sound Engineers' who really don't understand the basic principles of sound. It sounds twisted, but its reality. Fact is i command a decent day rate because i know how to make clients feel comfortable in my ability to deliver a consistently excellent result, not because i understand the relative phase coherence of a line array vs a point source. It's good that i have a decent handle on these things, but it actually contributes very little to my bottom line. And in point of fact, systems have gotten so turn key in the past half a decade or so that my need to understand how they work continues to decrease.

Of course my need to understand networking and digital audio continues to INCREASE, but that's WAY OT... :)
 
Re: Infocomm???

+1

Different customers have a different hierarchy of needs, so it is all about understanding what is important to the customer.

For fixed install customers reliability and ease of use to prevent costly service calls is very high on the list.

For some concert sound systems being loud and looking the part. Even if Danley could design a box that was only 1 cubic yard that would melt everyone in the stadiums ear drums. It wouldn't look the part that small... Line arrays just look sexy.

It's all about communication which flows both ways. You need to communicate what you are offering, and you must understand what the customer really wants (mostly to not be embarrassed by their decisions).

JR
 
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