Infocomm???

Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
That would be a great sounding setup-deep, full, smooth etc.

It would also make a great sounding home setup. Something you can't say for "professional" type products.
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You should package it up as a club killer, as a direct competitor to all those speaker on stick on sub systems out there.
Tall, Skinny, increased sight lines, better coverage, better impulse response, one stereo crossover, next to no DSP, 2 stereo amps. What's not to like?

Hum - I've been thinking of replacing my Acoustats and my room is the right size to make this work. Interesting.
 
Re: Infocomm???

Peter Morris said:
Large concerts were original done with huge arrays of point source boxes like Clair’s S4 or Turbosounds TMS3’s. The comb filtering, acoustic performance and weight was awful.

Then L-Acoustic introduced the V-Dosc. They needed less than half the number of boxes, the boxes were smaller and lighter, the comb filtering was greatly reduced and things started to sound quite good.

The first time I saw V-Dosc was with Metallica, I can remember being blown away with the size of the rig and that in about 15 to 20 minutes two people had the rig on the ground ready to be loaded into the truck … and there was one less truck needed!

Line arrays still have a lot of issues, but if you look at something like d&b’s J series its light enough for 2 people to pick up and you can use it for audience ranging from 1000 to 20000.

What Danley has done is put a lot more of the components into one box, not difficult when you think about it – Done correctly this approach minimizes the acoustic problems and reduces the total weight of the system … just as Ivan said.

The cost is reduced flexibility, and the weight of the individual boxes can be as much as 720 lbs in Danley’s case! For most hire companies this is not an acceptable compromise.

In simple terms there is cost for scalability and flexibility. The issue I have is that Danley does not offer a solution with these attributes, (and by that I don't mean line array) yet is so unremittingly critical of manufactures that do.

Back on topic - did anyone get a chance to have a look at Avids S6L or Allen & Heaths dLive … what did you think?
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FWIW S6L and dLive - best in show (consoles) Infocomm http://www.mixonline.com/news/news-articles/newbay-infocomm-best-show-winners/424846
 
Re: Infocomm???

First paragraph of the article -

"The Pro Audio Group team of NewBay Media’s AV and Pro Audio Group announced its Best of Show Award winners today at the InfoComm 2015. NewBay Media’s Best of Show Awards are judged by a panel of engineers and industry experts from submitted nominations. Criteria include ease of installation and use/maintenance, performance, relevance, value/ROI, network friendliness, versatility, and reliability."
"
 
Re: Infocomm???

Jason Raboin said:
Who pick the "winners"? I listened to the EAW Redline demo and was pretty underwhelmed. What are these boxes doing that is so special?
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We have been approached by "somebody" to have our products entered into the "best of show".

The problem is that it cost money to enter. And if you don't pay, there is no way your product could be chosen-no matter how good or "best" it is.

We were not going to "pay to play".

It is just a money making racket if you ask me.

But there are probably several different "organizations" that have a "best in show".

If you want a INSULTING story-here is on.

A couple of years back, our booth was right across the isle from a "lounge area". Towards the end of the show they had a gathering to give out the "best in show" audio awards.

The "PA" was facing me and was probably about 30' away. Yet I could not understand a single word that was being said.

WHY? Because the sound system was a "popular" line source column that was intended to be sat on the ground (which it was) and there were a lot of people standing in front of it.

YEAH-let's give away a "best in show" audio award, yet no one has enough SENSE to get the speakers up in the air where they could be heard past the first row!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It makes you question the whole "who judges these things and is in charge" aspect.

It's no wonder the sound quality today sucks. People at "the highest levels" just don't seem to care.
 
Re: Infocomm???

You should know this but trade shows are notorious for amateurish sound, for several reasons.

First the system deployed is typically populated with new gear that may not be the best tool for the specific task, but instead is gear that needs to be showcased to that trade show crowd, at that show.

Second, most pro audio companies arrogantly decline to hire real mix engineers when they have a trade show booth full of "experts" already at the show who they can use for free (trade show overtime pay... don't make me laugh). So the sound guys are usually working outside their area of expertise, for free..

Don't ask me how I know this... :) :)

JR
 
Re: Infocomm???

John Roberts said:
Second, most pro audio companies arrogantly decline to hire real mix engineers when they have a trade show booth full of "experts" already at the show who they can use for free (trade show overtime pay... don't make me laugh). So the sound guys are usually working outside their area of expertise, for free..

Don't ask me how I know this... :) :)

JR
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Do you mean that we are supposed to get overtime pay for shows?????????????????????

GREAT-I can now retire--------------as soon as I get it :)

NAH-I can't retire-I love my job to much
 
Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
I arranged our "GO2" boxes in a line array "alignment"-as a joke. They are simple different model numbers stacked on top of one another.Most people did not "get it" and thought it was a line array.That just goes to show how much the marketing has warped peoples minds-and even sadder-how many people don't have a clue as to what a line array is.How can we possibly expect those people to understand what the problems are, and why other solutions are better.It is quite interesting how many people want a line array SIMPLY because they think it is "cool" or even worse-just to be able to use the words.Somehow it makes them "feel better" about the system.I have a feeling by the end of this decade (around 2020 or 2021) things will start to change and people will start to realize that they have been "deceived" and new (actually old) ideas will start to be more popular.But "line arrays" will be with us for awhile. My guess (based on historically how long it takes to change opinions/ideas) is that by 2030, the "line array" fad will have run its course. But the loudspeaker driver manufacturers DO NOT want this to happen. They are LOVING being able to sell more drivers to do the same job as fewer drivers-simply good business.By then I will be a "crusty 'ol fart" and will be able to look back and laugh at what happened the previous 20 years.I could be completely wrong-but simpler is better-and having products work the way nature intended will provide better sounding results. Always think of simply dropping a pebble in a pond and how the waves radiate-vs multiple pebbles. Which is more pure?
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What about dropping a stick?
 
Re: Infocomm???

John Roberts said:
Second, most pro audio companies arrogantly decline to hire real mix engineers when they have a trade show booth full of "experts" already at the show who they can use for free (trade show overtime pay... don't make me laugh). So the sound guys are usually working outside their area of expertise, for free..
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Or worse, they DO hire a real R&R engineer, who promptly treats it like an arena show when in fact the real purpose is to let everyone schmooze and drink. Hard to do that at 95dB. Should've hired a corpie engineer who knows how to not make the band the center of attention.
 
Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
It just LOOKS like a stick-but acts like a pebble

Here is a explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8cX5Xs_vZg
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Plenty of manufacturers have made that claim over the years, and that video shows that the SBH10 is indeed a vertical array loudspeaker, not some exotic horn design (although it likely does work on different principles than most vertical arrays).
 
Re: Infocomm???

Rob Timmerman said:
Plenty of manufacturers have made that claim over the years, and that video shows that the SBH10 is indeed a vertical array loudspeaker, not some exotic horn design (although it likely does work on different principles than most vertical arrays).
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If so, then can you explain how come it measures like a horn, NOT a vertical array.

How come it does not have the lobing of a vertical array?

How come the pattern acts as a horn, not narrowing in the middle like a vertical array.

Maybe you know something we don't.

Yes the different paralines are stacked vertically, BUT as you should have gathered from the video, they are each acting as part of the horn, not simple devices stacked up.
 
Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
If so, then can you explain how come it measures like a horn, NOT a vertical array.

How come it does not have the lobing of a vertical array?

How come the pattern acts as a horn, not narrowing in the middle like a vertical array.

Maybe you know something we don't.

Yes the different paralines are stacked vertically, BUT as you should have gathered from the video, they are each acting as part of the horn, not simple devices stacked up.
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I am using the term "vertical array" in the most literal sense, describing a physical arrangement. No implications about the sources are made. A vertical array of highly directional sources will of course behave differently from a vertical array of omnidirectional sources.
 
Re: Infocomm???

Ivan Beaver said:
If so, then can you explain how come it measures like a horn, NOT a vertical array.

How come it does not have the lobing of a vertical array?

How come the pattern acts as a horn, not narrowing in the middle like a vertical array.

Maybe you know something we don't.

Yes the different paralines are stacked vertically, BUT as you should have gathered from the video, they are each acting as part of the horn, not simple devices stacked up.
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Ivan,

The SH10 or 20 behaves exactly like a fix curvature “line”array. Fixed curvature arrays are designed as an array / horn whose acoustic focal point is way behind the array just like your box. The engineers at other companies are clever guys as well, they get this stuff.

What we call line-arrays in 2015 are not really line-arrays, as L- Accoustic describes them they variable curvature arrays … and yes there are compromises making the array angle variable, and yes there will be some multiple arrivals, and some are better than others, it’s just the price you pay for flexibility.

A properly designed fix curvature array is very much like cutting one of your SH10 into sections and assembling at the gig. The only difference is yours is straight with extra path length caused by the curvature being built into the paraline assembly.

FWIW what you guys have done is fantastic … love the concept and I want one :)~:)~:smile: I want to stick an SH10/ 20 on top of a double 18 and make some serious SPL. I could imagine so many applications for it.

 

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Re: Infocomm???

Rob Timmerman said:
A vertical array of highly directional sources will of course behave differently from a vertical array of omnidirectional sources.
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The problem when you "think" you are using highly directional sources is that in almost every case you are NOT.

A highly directional source (meaning narrow pattern) only exhibits that behavior in the top octave or two, unless they are VERY LARGE.

As the pattern narrows, it HAS to get LARGER to have the same control to a specific freq as a wider pattern.

So what you end up with is a lot of "pattern flip" and the resulting interference, which manifests itself in lobes and such-which are easily heard.

THe SBH products are designed as stand alone (ie you do not stack them to get more control or output) products that produce the pattern because each of the drivers is part of the total pattern. Each driver/lens has a different pattern (as shown in the video).

The end results are FAR from being the same as simply stacking up boxes of any type
 
Re: Infocomm???

Peter Morris said:
Ivan,

The SH10 or 20 behaves exactly like a fix curvature “line”array. Fixed curvature arrays are designed as an array / horn whose acoustic focal point is way behind the array just like your box. The engineers at other companies are clever guys as well, they get this stuff.

What we call line-arrays in 2015 are not really line-arrays, as L- Accoustic describes them they variable curvature arrays … and yes there are compromises making the array angle variable, and yes there will be some multiple arrivals, and some are better than others, it’s just the price you pay for flexibility.

A properly designed fix curvature array is very much like cutting one of your SH10 into sections and assembling at the gig. The only difference is yours is straight with extra path length caused by the curvature being built into the paraline assembly.

FWIW what you guys have done is fantastic … love the concept and I want one :)~:)~:smile: I want to stick an SH10/ 20 on top of a double 18 and make some serious SPL. I could imagine so many applications for it.

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Actually it is NOT the same.

In the other "products" that you describe, each transducer is still acting as a "omni" source-producing interference to the other devices.

It is through this destructive interference that they get their pattern. The SBH is using constructive gain to get the pattern.

Yes the "apparent source" is further behind, but how it is done is completely different.

Here is an easy test to see whether or not there is much self interference in a cabinet.

Take a pair of them and set them up in stereo. Place another speaker of any type in the middle and do NOT hook it up.

Now play a good stereo signal (preferably with vocals) and see how good the "phantom center channel" is.

With well behaved sources, you will SWEAR there is a center channel. You have to walk up to the speaker to see that it is actually NOT on.

With other systems you can kinda get a "center feel", but it does not appear as if there is coming out of the center speaker.

This works for other types of systems as well.
 
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