New DIY Mid High (90deg) - AKA PM90

[Peter Morris]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Of course it depends on how the systems were setup. Where were the crossover points-the delays etc? It can make a big difference on what the "perceived sound" is. It can be hard to judge a system if you are not aware of how it was setup. And maybe the person who provided the system liked the particular alignment that you heard. How the crossover is handled can make a big difference on how "disconnected" or not a sub and top cabinet are.

Regarding the J1 and J2-they are different cabinets with different intended usages. The low freq capability of the J1 is quite a bit more than any other part of the cabinet and much more than the J2. Even though they both use 6 18" drivers. The drivers are different and they way they are loaded is very different.

There are a lot of other differences and intended usages between the cabinets. For example the J2 has greater pattern control down lower and goes lower in freq naturally, but the J1 has much more impact/punch naturally down firing (stadiums where the speakers were up high was the original design idea) and so forth.

... .

FWIW I believe the system was set up by one of your representatives. I assume you have standard recommended settings for the SM80 / TH118 combination. I also think the set-up was fine, comparatively the SM80 + TH118 was very good. When you consider the total cost including amps and processors it was excellent.

My interest is in how we should voice our sound systems, particularly when setting up a system in field. I'm not talking about the amount of available sub power needed for EDM, but an alignment that sounds flat and natural and is nice to listen to.

From the description on your web page both the J1 and J2 are part of the Jericho range of speakers. They appear to designed for similar applications; to cover large spaces like a football stadium. The J1 has a 90 x 40 pattern and the J2 a 90 x 60 pattern and they both use 6 x 18" drivers for the LF. So why is there such a difference in how they are voiced?

You describe the J1 as follows "the J1-94, or Jericho Horn, is simply the most accurate high-power loudspeaker ever created” yet the low frequency between 60 – 100 Hz is about 12 dB louder than the mid band around 1000 Hz – why did you align it that way?

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: New DIY Mid High

FWIW I believe the system was set up by one of your representatives. I assume you have standard recommended settings for the SM80 / TH118 combination. I also think the set-up was fine, comparatively the SM80 + TH118 was very good. When you consider the total cost including amps and processors it was excellent.

My interest is in how we should voice our sound systems, particularly when setting up a system in field. I'm not talking about the amount available sub power needed for EDM, but an alignment that sounds flat and natural and is nice to listen to.

From the description on your web page both the J1 and J2 are part of the Jericho range of speakers. They appear to designed for similar applications; to cover large spaces like a football stadium. The J1 has a 90 x 40 pattern and the J2 a 90 x 60 pattern and they both use 6 x 18" drivers for the LF. So why is there such a difference in how they are voiced?

You describe the J1 as follows "the J1-94, or Jericho Horn, is simply the most accurate high-power loudspeaker ever created” yet the low frequency between 60 – 100 Hz is about 12 dB louder than the mid band around 1000 Hz – why did you align it that way?

Where was this event held? I am curious who attended-as I have not heard anything about it except here. Do you remember the name of the person who was there? I am not aware of all the demos that go on-just some of them.

The "voicing" of a system is an interesting debate. Often one that is flat and accurate (which is great for a live band) may not "sound" proper when listening to prerecorded music-especially at high SPL levels. In a live situation often the 3K "bite" would be removed from the offending channel strips. But in prerecorded music, all we have access to is the "voicing" of the system. For live music I always go for flat. For DJ type events that is different.

The excessive low freq capability of the J1-94 is not a matter of "voicing", but rather an indication of the CAPABILITY of the cabinet-VERY different things.

In just about any popular music event-the low freq system needs to be able to "outrun" the mid/high section by at least 10dB, and often 15dB.

I have done metal bands outdoors with just a single J1 per side-no subs. There is NO WAY I could do that with a system that had the lows having the same output as the mid highs.

The J1s are used in quite a few stadiums (often just 1 or 2) without any subs and provide plenty of low end.

I would add that the quote from the spec sheet was at the time the J1 was introduced. That of course has changed with other products such as the J5 (Caleb). If that bothers you-would you PLEASE call the office and speak to Cooper about it. Often the office gets tired of me bringing up things like that

The Jericho speakers are all part of a series of high output (think in Biblical terms of the walls of Jericho).

As I stated earlier, they both use 6x18 drivers, but the drivers are different, the alignment/tuning is different (the J2 goes lower and the J1 goes MUCH louder)

For many applications (especially that are loud), I suggest subs with the J2. But for other applications it is fine.

The J2 (due to its larger horn), has pattern control down lower. This is really good for large indoor applications, such as arenas.

The direction the pattern faces is also different between the J1 and J2. The J2 is straight forward and the J1 is downfiring.

Basically the main difference in the Jericho models (more will coming out) is the way the HF driver combining is handled. But in all of them the idea is to combine with greater output, rather than to cancel to achieve the pattern.

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Where was this event held? I am curious who attended-as I have not heard anything about it except here. Do you remember the name of the person who was there? I am not aware of all the demos that go on-just some of them.

The "voicing" of a system is an interesting debate. Often one that is flat and accurate (which is great for a live band) may not "sound" proper when listening to prerecorded music-especially at high SPL levels. In a live situation often the 3K "bite" would be removed from the offending channel strips. But in prerecorded music, all we have access to is the "voicing" of the system. For live music I always go for flat. For DJ type events that is different.

The excessive low freq capability of the J1-94 is not a matter of "voicing", but rather an indication of the CAPABILITY of the cabinet-VERY different things.

In just about any popular music event-the low freq system needs to be able to "outrun" the mid/high section by at least 10dB, and often 15dB.

I have done metal bands outdoors with just a single J1 per side-no subs. There is NO WAY I could do that with a system that had the lows having the same output as the mid highs.

The J1s are used in quite a few stadiums (often just 1 or 2) without any subs and provide plenty of low end.

I would add that the quote from the spec sheet was at the time the J1 was introduced. That of course has changed with other products such as the J5 (Caleb). If that bothers you-would you PLEASE call the office and speak to Cooper about it. Often the office gets tired of me bringing up things like that

The Jericho speakers are all part of a series of high output (think in Biblical terms of the walls of Jericho).

As I stated earlier, they both use 6x18 drivers, but the drivers are different, the alignment/tuning is different (the J2 goes lower and the J1 goes MUCH louder)

For many applications (especially that are loud), I suggest subs with the J2. But for other applications it is fine.

The J2 (due to its larger horn), has pattern control down lower. This is really good for large indoor applications, such as arenas.

The direction the pattern faces is also different between the J1 and J2. The J2 is straight forward and the J1 is downfiring.

Basically the main difference in the Jericho models (more will coming out) is the way the HF driver combining is handled. But in all of them the idea is to combine with greater output, rather than to cancel to achieve the pattern.

http://cxevents.com.au/

JBL – VUE – EM - Meyer – Void – EV – Danley – Mackie

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: New DIY Mid High

http://cxevents.com.au/

JBL – VUE – EM - Meyer – Void – EV – Danley – Mackie

I meant who attended as "our representative".

I don't remember hearing any comments in the main office about this (I usually hear about those things-people like to tell me).

But it could have been something a rep or a dealer setup. I don't hear about all of those.

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: New DIY Mid High

I meant who attended as "our representative".

I don't remember hearing any comments in the main office about this (I usually hear about those things-people like to tell me).

But it could have been something a rep or a dealer setup. I don't hear about all of those.

http://www.danleysound.com.au/index.php ... don't know any names, but they were doing a great job of representing Danley for you.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: New DIY Mid High

http://www.danleysound.com.au/index.php ... don't know any names, but they were doing a great job of representing Danley for you.

That would explain me not knowing.

 

[Bill Hornibrook]

Re: New DIY Mid High

http://cxevents.com.au/

JBL – VUE – EM - Meyer – Void – EV – Danley – Mackie

Not only free admission but free beer??? Wow! I wish there was an equipment roadshow like this in the States! And they wouldn't need free beer to twist my arm either

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Not only free admission but free beer??? Wow! I wish there was an equipment roadshow like this in the States! And they wouldn't need free beer to twist my arm either

It is just a matter of setting it up.

Make it attractive to the manufacturers (ie worthwhile for sending gear-people etc). This does not mean paying them, but setting it up so that the comparisons are fair-having enough of the "right people" attend and so forth. 1 "right" person could be worth 200 people who are curious and will never buy or spec the product.

Many people attempt something like this-but getting a suitable location-proper time for people to attend (day jobs and weekend jobs get in the way for different people) and actually getting people to attend is not as easy as some would think.

 

[Steve Anderson]

New DIY Mid High

I was the guy down in Adelaide! I'll cover a few things in one post.

Peter, was good to meet you and talk about Danley things.

As Peter mentioned, the room (in Adelaide) was not at all conducive to critical listening of any kind. From what I understand,it was a last minute change from an even more inappropriate room. The roadshow organisers did the absolute best with what they had at each venue. The Sydney listening venue was probably the most revealing, it is a purpose built "real" 500 pax theatre.

Ivan, the system was set up with essentially the settings you gave me back in December when the SM80s first arrived. Certainly, on measurement, it was phase coherent right through the crossover region.

We (each company doing a system demo) were actually able to tweak if we wanted per venue. But time was very limited (a complete tradeshow with trailers unloading at 7am each day) and our tweaking was really limited to a quick "ears only" check, certainly no dual FFT shenanigans. Then a very quick SPL measurement was taken of pink noise to level match.

Peter, the actual files used were all at least 44.1/16 bit uncompressed (with the exception of one MP3) with some being higher quality than that. Yes, there was a "timing pop" happening from time to time, but between clicks I don't think it affected the listening (we think it was the USB to ethernet dongle on the apple mac running Audinate's DVS). Mac fed a Soundcraft digital desk and then an analog feed to each system's amplifier/processor.

Whilst it wasn't a great critical listening environment, it certainly worked as a quick introduction to the abilities of various systems. We certainly had a lot of visits to the stand at all cities after the demo sessions with a lot of favourable comments.

Cxevents.com.au put on a great show, it was fun and exciting taking Danley across the country and introducing a lot of people to the brand.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: New DIY Mid High

We (each company doing a system demo) were actually able to tweak if we wanted per venue. But time was very limited (a complete tradeshow with trailers unloading at 7am each day) and our tweaking was really limited to a quick "ears only" check, certainly no dual FFT shenanigans. Then a very quick SPL measurement was taken of pink noise to level match.

.

Do you mean like showing up for a normal gig and not getting time to soundcheck properly? Like real life???????????????

Sometimes that is all the time you have. You don't always have the luxury of hours of tuning-as you do in a typical install.

Sometimes it is just "throw it up and go" and hope for the best. And sometimes it is fine that way.

It depends on how much a particular product relies on "fancy tuning" to sound good-or is it good sounding "out of the box".

 

[Steve Anderson]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Ha! yes! Just like real life...

Each venue was pretty much: listen to 30 secs of track (not my choice), 20 secs to tweak, listen again… done! Essentially we (most of the reps) were balancing subs to tops in the various rooms.

We were using a PLM10000Q amplifier for the SM80+TH118 combo. I do have a setting in there where I've pushed the low end a bit to counter the slight dip in the low mids… I just haven't used that setting in anger, and knowing they were going to do a track quite loud, I just left it as was. Even so, in every venue, I had good reports as to how it stood it up to the rest.

Can't really go into details as this is bordering on a manufacturer and their rep talking up their own product (sorry Bennett)

But I did value Peter's comments, and I know he was listening as critically as possible in that environment.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Can't really go into details as this is bordering on a manufacturer and their rep talking up their own product (sorry Bennett)

Hey Steve, we've never had any restriction like this as long as you've identified yourself as a rep (which you have) and don't talk shit about others products (which you haven't).

 

[Steve Anderson]

New DIY Mid High

Thanks Bennett… that's what I meant… any further comments would be about how it compared, and would have been anecdotal hearsay at best…

And I don't want to hijack Peter's thread

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Thanks to everyone that has assisted so far, it’s been a great help. As I mentioned previously I am now doing some more work to optimize the design of a 60 degree version. I will post an update shortly… DIY MH60 with even more SPL and the possibility of arraying two or more boxes per side.~~:smile:

I think it is also appropriate to mention again that the object of this project was to match the output capabilities of something like a KF850e with a speaker on a stick; the output you would normally associate with a much larger ground stacked PA or small flown line-array.

Given the number of times Danley’s SM80 has been mentioned recently it's also worth mentioning that it’s not appropriate to compare the DIY with SM80.

The SM80 is a great box, and I love the coaxial B&C driver it uses. In comparison the DIY is a little heavier and bigger; it goes about 100Hz lower and should have about 8 dB more output. At 100 Hz it models with 15dB more output than the SM80! The DIY should run at almost 135 dB continuous above 100Hz.

 

[Darren Scaresbrook]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Thanks to everyone that has assisted so far, it’s been a great help. As I mentioned previously I am now doing some more work to optimize the design of a 60 degree version. I will post an update shortly… DIY MH60 with even more SPL and the possibility of arraying two or more boxes per side.~~:smile:

I think it is also appropriate to mention again that the object of this project was to match the output capabilities of something like a KF850e with a speaker on a stick; the output you would normally associate with a much larger ground stacked PA or small flown line-array.

Given the number of times Danley’s SM80 has been mentioned recently it's also worth mentioning that it’s not appropriate to compare the DIY with SM80.

The SM80 is a great box, and I love the coaxial B&C driver it uses. In comparison the DIY is a little heavier and bigger; it goes about 100Hz lower and should have about 8 dB more output. At 100 Hz it models with 15dB more output than the SM80! The DIY should run at almost 135 dB continuous above 100Hz.

Excellent work, Peter!

Adding a 60 degree version will really open up the versatility of the box. I don't think any other "box on a stick", that I know of, can come close to this for output!

Darren

 

[Jeffrey Knorr]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Thanks to everyone that has assisted so far, it’s been a great help. As I mentioned previously I am now doing some more work to optimize the design of a 60 degree version. I will post an update shortly… DIY MH60 with even more SPL and the possibility of arraying two or more boxes per side.~~:smile:

Hi Peter,

Awesome work so far on the DIY MH. I have been following along since the beginning of the thread. I'm fairly close to committing to build at least four of these boxes for our own use. Since I'm contemplating this, I'm also willing to help coordinate a group buy for the BMS drivers and possibly other logistics to see these cabinets State side.

Everyone,

I've spoken with Jack Arnott from Assistance Audio on a group buy to leverage our SFN DIY buying power. Here's the rough terms of how it could work:
Base price of the the BMS 4594HE is ~$785.00 each plus shipping.
If we can do 13+, we can drop that price to ~$550 each plus shipping (an approximately 30% discount).

Like I said, I'm willing to coordinate this passing on only the direct costs. To make sure this actually happens (and to give Peter some time to continue to refine the design), let's say that I would need to have the following by March 31st, 2015:
-Your Name
-Quantity Desired
-Payment in FULL!

To judge interest, please contact me via PM or email ASAP and I'll update the thread as I hear from you.
Current group buy BMS 4594HE list:
Name/Business - QTY
Jeffrey Knorr/Cobra Sound - 4

I will reach out to RCF to see if we can arrange a similar agreement with them for the 12" drivers and HF horn.

Thank you,

Jeff

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Hi Peter,

Awesome work so far on the DIY MH. I have been following along since the beginning of the thread. I'm fairly close to committing to build at least four of these boxes for our own use. Since I'm contemplating this, I'm also willing to help coordinate a group buy for the BMS drivers and possibly other logistics to see these cabinets State side.

Everyone,

I've spoken with Jack Arnott from Assistance Audio on a group buy to leverage our SFN DIY buying power. Here's the rough terms of how it could work:
Base price of the the BMS 4594HE is ~$785.00 each plus shipping.
If we can do 13+, we can drop that price to ~$550 each plus shipping (an approximately 30% discount).

Like I said, I'm willing to coordinate this passing on only the direct costs. To make sure this actually happens (and to give Peter some time to continue to refine the design), let's say that I would need to have the following by March 31st, 2015:
-Your Name
-Quantity Desired
-Payment in FULL!

To judge interest, please contact me via PM or email ASAP and I'll update the thread as I hear from you.
Current group buy BMS 4594HE list:
Name/Business - QTY
Jeffrey Knorr/Cobra Sound - 4

I will reach out to RCF to see if we can arrange a similar agreement with them for the 12" drivers and HF horn.

Thank you,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

That’s fantastic!

Some more information about the 12 inch driver selection:

The mid horn needed to go from 100 Hz to 700 Hz. Building the prototype was to test if the W design would work over that range … and it does.

This is also where the BMS 4594 has an advantage in this design when compared to a normal compression driver, it will operated down to 700 Hz at full power. This means that the 12", the HF and VHF are all operating in their piston range without cone or diaphragm breakup.

I looked at many many different 12 inch drivers and the RCF had the right combination of cone mass, BL product, Xmax and power handling. There were many other drivers that are just as good as the RCF but they didn't have parameters needed for this design.

One driver that would work OK is B&C 12NDL76, slightly less power handling than the RCF but it SIMs well. I think it’s also a little lighter and cheaper, but I don’t know how its distortion level compares.

As it turns out I just happen to have 4 of these lying around and when I get a chance I will do a comparison with the RCF. If they work in this design Bennett may be able to assist :?:

The B&C has a much more conservatively rated Xmax. That may translate to a performance advantage when pushed … however I don’t know.

- 12NDL76 – Xmax = 6.5mm, coil length 19mm, top plate 10mm
- RCF MB12N351 – Xmax = 5.5mm, coil length 16.5mm, top plate 11mm

At the rated power the maximum Xmax needed is 5.5 mmm @ 100Hz. Below 100Hz the Xmax is less because of the porting.

Dynamic compression and distortion can increase when the amount of the VC in magnetic gap is less the the height of the top plate / magnetic gap. In this respect the B&C should do better as it maintains 100% VC in magnetic gap up to an Xmax of 4.5mm. The RCF can only do 2.75mm ... but its not quite that straight forward.

With respect to the 60 degree version using 18sound XT1464 it looks like it will provide 2 – 3 db more output. Some of this is due to the narrower pattern, and some because it a little larger and maintains it efficiency down to a lower frequency.

The horn is slightly deeper and will require the box to be 10 – 20 mm deeper. This will increase a little extra length to the horn which in this case will be a plus.

Given that a 60 degree box is likely to be used in pairs the plan to make the rear section of the box trapezoidal as far as possible (tricky). The SIMs indicates that a pair of boxes will run continuously at around 138 dB whole space in the low mids. I suspect because I have not included directivity in the model its probably 3 dB more in use.

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Here is a picture of a couple of horns I have compared to the RCF 950 - The 18sound XT1460 and a 90 degree proprietary horn designed by a friend.

Unfortunately I can't seem to find some of the plots I made.

In short the XT1460 is almost 3 dB more efficient over the operating band especially down around 600 Hz when compared to the 90 degree RCF 950.

The proprietary horn has similar efficiency above 1KHz to the 950, but it is 3 to 4 dB more efficient around 600 Hz. Its bigger and longer, and a little large for the DIY unfortunately :-(.

The plots are comparing the raw response of a 4594HE with an 18sound NSD1480N - both on the XT1480.

http://www.eighteensound.it/PRODUCTS/Products/CatID/3/ProdID=151#.VO8MonyUfHU

I did two plots to compare the Mid and HF of the NSD1480N to the raw 4594HE plot (orange).

I have used 1 octave smoothing to make the efficiencies easier to compare. The 4594 is about 2.5 dB more efficient between 700 Hz and 4.0 Khz, and as you can see its more like 10 - 16 dB above 10 KHz.

In total the 4594 will take about 3 dB more power than the 1480.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: New DIY Mid High

Personally, and I'm still new to the whole thing so take this as you will, the system itself is tuned flat, but I allow for a heck of a lot of headroom. Just because the subs are equal to the tops doesn't mean the material they are sent has to remain that way.

Just preference, I'm likely to change it.

Think of it this way. If the genre of music is going to require 20 dB of bass boost you have already given up 20 dB of your system headroom out of the gate. If you know this in advance bring 20 dB more sub to the gig and you start with the same useable headroom you thought you had before the operator starts cranking up the bass to make it "feel" right. A 20 dB boost in bass only uses up the low end headroom but you have brought an extra 20 dB of sub so you are now ready to go with what the operator considers "flat".

From experience my preference is to always have more than enough in all bandwidths.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: New DIY Mid High

One driver that would work OK is B&C 12NDL76, slightly less power handling than the RCF but it SIMs well. I think it’s also a little lighter and cheaper, but I don’t know how its distortion level compares.

As it turns out I just happen to have 4 of these lying around and when I get a chance I will do a comparison with the RCF. If they work in this design Bennett may be able to assist :?:

The B&C has a much more conservatively rated Xmax. That may translate to a performance advantage when pushed … however I don’t know.

- 12NDL76 – Xmax = 6.5mm, coil length 19mm, top plate 10mm
- RCF MB12N351 – Xmax = 5.5mm, coil length 16.5mm, top plate 11mm

Hi Peter,

We take pride in publishing specifications that translate well into real world performance, and design our components in that regard as well. Unfortunately, while that results in extremely consistent specifications between our products, it makes it a crapshoot as to whether or not our parts can be compared on paper to another manufacturer's. Some more boutique parts won't even use the same units or specifications! Obviously it is pretty difficult for a DIY-er to do a full power test and extensive listening tests, but I would be wary of directly comparing seemingly obvious specs like Xmax, sensitivity, and even Mms. As such, we prefer the Xvar measure over Xmax. In our opinion, it more accurately and consistently states available excursion. Here's our take on that from our website:

Evolution is a process that affects not only products, but also their technical specifications. Constant advances in research provide more and more precise methods to measure the performance of loudspeakers, and describe their features. Thiele – Small parameters have become the universal language for describing loudspeaker behavior in the small signal domain. Nevertheless, they comment little on the working limits of loudspeakers in the large signal regime.

These limits are customarily indicated by Xmax, the maximum linear excursion. This value is typically measured according to the AES2-1984 standard, corresponding to a maximum of 10% total harmonic distortion (THD) with a sinusoidal signal (though most manufacturers, including B&C, now typically provide data for Linear Mathematical Xmax, not measured Xmax). Recent research shows that this method can yield ambiguous results, and even different numerical values for the same loudspeaker. The main limit of this measurement is that it looks at the output signal instead of the physical features of the driver itself. On the contrary, the most up-to-date instruments for distortion analysis can measure the variations in loudspeaker parameters when they are fed with high-level signals. In this way, an excursion limit can be fixed, beyond which the parameter’s variation becomes excessive.

The “X var” value reported in our data (generally after the traditional “Xmax” value) is measured this way. Beyond this excursion limit, the magnetic field seen by the voice coil, or the total suspension compliance, or both, drops to less than 50% of their small signal value, producing high distortion levels, strong variations from small signal behavior and power compression. The new technique yields different results from the standard measurement based on THD. B&C Speakers believes that this added information gives a more accurate and reliable description on loudspeakers behavior in actual operating conditions.

If you think more power handling is needed I draw your attention to our new 12NDL88, versions of which you may start to see as early as Pro Light & Sound in April: http://www.bcspeakers.com/products/lf-driver/12-0/12ndl88