New DIY Mid High (90deg) - AKA PM90

Re: New DIY Mid High

Mark Wilkinson said:
Thanks Peter, your comments all make sense. And I apologize for not giving more info....4 labhorns is all I have...they represent my one and only foray into DIY.
I am looking for a "super speaker on a stick" just as you describe the design goal. With either 2 Labhorns per side in stereo, or the 4 blocked together in mono sub.

I have been using meyer upa-1p's as tops, and they sound great until pushed. But when pushed, an upper bass/ lower mid, hole is obvious, making me raise x-over freqeuncy above 80 hz. 80hz is where all sounds best at lower levels.

I'm hoping your design solves all that !! Many thx again, Mark
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I thought I should mention that the DIY is only designed to run from about 100Hz up. It will go down to 80Hz, but the output is limited. This is one of the compromises for a horn of this size.

If the modelled response and output are correct I am yet to find a box of this size with more output. Some will make the same mid band SPL but they can not maintain it down to 100Hz.

The horn works well down to about 140 - 150 Hz; below that port adds the extra SPL needed to get down to 100Hz.
 
Re: New DIY Mid High

Hey Peter- it seems like the Community SLS series boxes will come pretty close to your design. The SLS920 seems like the closest fit, though it falls fast below 200hz. But, it only takes 500 watts to get the output, which is nice. :) just some food for thought.



Evan
 
Re: New DIY Mid High

Evan Kirkendall said:
Hey Peter- it seems like the Community SLS series boxes will come pretty close to your design. The SLS920 seems like the closest fit, though it falls fast below 200hz. But, it only takes 500 watts to get the output, which is nice. :) just some food for thought.



Evan
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Hi Evan,

There is more to it than "how loud will it go". There are several boxes out there that go as loud, but getting that performance down to 100hz in this size enclosure is the impressive bit.
Also, Peters design, being dipolar(in vertical plane), should have better off axis performance.
The ability of the box to reproduce square waves is very telling. Think about the fourier progression that makes a square wave, that this box can reproduce this waveform, is possible only by having a ruler flat phase/time response over a very broad operating range of frequencies.
The drivers used are also important. By using the components Peter has chosen he has been able to keep distortion to a very low level, minimising break up modes in the drivers and allowing them to remain purely pistonic in their operating ranges.

While I have spent some time listening to the boxes, this Thursday I will be using them for the first time on a real gig. I'm very much looking forward to it!
I'll be sure to post a "gig report" with my impressions.

Darren
 
Re: New DIY Mid High

Darren Scaresbrook said:
Hi Evan,

There is more to it than "how loud will it go". There are several boxes out there that go as loud, but getting that performance down to 100hz in this size enclosure is the impressive bit.
Also, Peters design, being dipolar(in vertical plane), should have better off axis performance.
The ability of the box to reproduce square waves is very telling. Think about the fourier progression that makes a square wave, that this box can reproduce this waveform, is possible only by having a ruler flat phase/time response over a very broad operating range of frequencies.
The drivers used are also important. By using the components Peter has chosen he has been able to keep distortion to a very low level, minimising break up modes in the drivers and allowing them to remain purely pistonic in their operating ranges.

While I have spent some time listening to the boxes, this Thursday I will be using them for the first time on a real gig. I'm very much looking forward to it!
I'll be sure to post a "gig report" with my impressions.

Darren
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Not doubting Peter's build by any means. It looks like a great little utility box for solo-man gigs where size & output matter the most! I'm just a big supporter of the Community SLS boxes, as they are my 'go to' trap box, and I have a bunch of them for ground stack gigs. :)

Looking forward to real gig reviews!


Evan
 
Re: New DIY Mid High

Evan Kirkendall said:
Not doubting Peter's build by any means. It looks like a great little utility box for solo-man gigs where size & output matter the most! I'm just a big supporter of the Community SLS boxes, as they are my 'go to' trap box, and I have a bunch of them for ground stack gigs. :)

Looking forward to real gig reviews!


Evan
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FWIW here is my best guess modeling the low section of both speakers - DIY black, SLS920 grey
 

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Re: New DIY Mid High

Evan Kirkendall said:
I'm curious now... When I get to the shop tomorrow, I'm going to measure the low section of the 920's. :)



Evan
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Please note that these are power response plots - The SPL you will measure is different. Horn Response will do SPL plots which include directivity for pure horns, but not ported horn like these. (see my earlier posts)

Here is a comparison with the SLS980 - the dual 15 inch version - the dark line is the DIY. Note: these are my best guess - I have selected speakers that are approximately what I expected Community to use from Eminence's range of speakers.

I have also posted what the SIM predicts for the 920 without the port. The red line is my guess at what is missing. The impedance SIMs are always more extreme, but the peaks are almost in the right place :)~:-)~:smile:

The trick with the DIY is the length of the horn.


EDIT - Oooops made a mistake , I used 200 Watts each for the 8" drivers in the SLS 920 and 400 Watts each for the 15" drivers in the SLS 980 ... so the DIYs are even better in comparison (+ 3 dB) ... sorry.

http://www.communitypro.com/files/l...f?phpMyAdmin=c9cc5b3953d87385dc22218d669e7aab

http://www.communitypro.com/files/l...f?phpMyAdmin=c9cc5b3953d87385dc22218d669e7aab
 

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Re: New DIY Mid High

New sound power SIMs for the SLS920 & SLS980 Vs the DIY are below at the rated RMS power.

FWIW the DIY as a concept was to use the best processing available, the latest and best components I could find / buy.

Before I decided to build the DIY I did simulations on everything I could find - nothing I found had more SPL for its size and weight ... only way to find out if I was correct was to build some and test them ... still testing :proud:
 

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Re: New DIY Mid High

Peter Morris said:
I thought I should mention that the DIY is only designed to run from about 100Hz up. It will go down to 80Hz, but the output is limited. This is one of the compromises for a horn of this size.

If the modelled response and output are correct I am yet to find a box of this size with more output. Some will make the same mid band SPL but they can not maintain it down to 100Hz.

The horn works well down to about 140 - 150 Hz; below that port adds the extra SPL needed to get down to 100Hz.
Click to expand...

Thanks Peter, yeah, all along you've been saying 100hz.
So I've been listening / measuring trying to figure out why i settled in on a 80 hz crossover for the labhorns, and have about become convinced it was mainly to overcome a bit of a rising response there.
Flattening the subs response first, it's pretty easy to make good sound with the upa's anywhere 80-100hz plus.
I'm also convinced i need to keep the 4 subs coupled together....response is sooo much smoother, just as Tom Danley always stated..
Anyway, time to email Jeff re driver purchase and see if i can join the party ! Thx again for sharing. mark
 
Re: New DIY Mid High

Whats amazing to m is these speakers are in Adelaide. :D

I have been building quite a few TH subs over the years and have wanted to hear some DSL products since I first read about them years ago.

I still have a 21" driver in my shed awaiting my next TH build designed by Ricci. (Othorn) Also will be building something to work around a SEOS 18 1.4" that I have coming. That being said I have a QSC 152i horns for possibly other 2 way builds but my main focus is going to be building possibly a dual 12" mid horn such as DJK's Manta Ray. BUT after someone posted a link to this thread I am very curious what this speakers sounds like. Also interested in what your 18 Sound horns sound like.

I was looking at either a FaitalPro HF146 or possibly a 4015(1.4) for my SEOS horn. Thanks so much for this thread. Amazing how small this audio world can be with many of the same names I am used to seeing on other forums.

I am sure your very busy but would there ever be a time I could come around and have a listen to your MH12 setup?

Thanks either way.
 
Re: New DIY Mid High

David Chrapla said:
Whats amazing to m is these speakers are in Adelaide. :D

I have been building quite a few TH subs over the years and have wanted to hear some DSL products since I first read about them years ago.

I still have a 21" driver in my shed awaiting my next TH build designed by Ricci. (Othorn) Also will be building something to work around a SEOS 18 1.4" that I have coming. That being said I have a QSC 152i horns for possibly other 2 way builds but my main focus is going to be building possibly a dual 12" mid horn such as DJK's Manta Ray. BUT after someone posted a link to this thread I am very curious what this speakers sounds like. Also interested in what your 18 Sound horns sound like.

I was looking at either a FaitalPro HF146 or possibly a 4015(1.4) for my SEOS horn. Thanks so much for this thread. Amazing how small this audio world can be with many of the same names I am used to seeing on other forums.

I am sure your very busy but would there ever be a time I could come around and have a listen to your MH12 setup?

Thanks either way.
Click to expand...

Sure no problem ... I will send you a PM

You can hear them tomorrow if you like ..... http://www.adelaidefringe.com.au/fr...ute-show/269749ee-e272-43b2-8a0f-662ca83aafcd

and possibly we will be using them for a kids musical production in April http://www.pelicanproductions.com.au/

Peter
 
Re: New DIY Mid High

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWPXiQTVrAo I thought this video may be of interest. David Gunness uses the same trick as the DIY to get the path length needed for the (ported) horn to get down to 100Hz.

If you didn't need to make the box as small as I did, what David has done mounting the HF horn concentrically in the mouth of the LF horn is the way to go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA8cbyKcLhk

http://fulcrum-acoustic.com/assets/pdf/Spec Sheets/Prod Spec, AH96 v5.pdf

http://fulcrum-acoustic.com/assets/pdf/Spec Sheets/Prod Spec, AH463 v4.pdf
 
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Re: New DIY Mid High

Thanks for the links. I could build your system of even a bigger unit like the ones linked. The Manta Ray by DJK is just as big as the quad ten unit he described in the link. But the Manta Ray is dual 12 and still has a large horn sitting on top of the dual 12 cabinet. SO multiple boxes stacked which can work for me because I dont have any speaker stands yet. BUT portability would be nice. The price of that will just be a coaxial BMS is all. And for that I will have to wait.

Still have to get a CD for my 1.4" horn.

I just looked and saw that the BMS is 1.4" or 1.5". Do you have a 1.4" BMS?

If so do you have a spare one laying around you could test or listen to with my horn?

I am curious now what my horn will sound like with the BMS.
 
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Re: New DIY Mid High

Peter Morris said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWPXiQTVrAo

If you didn't need to make the box as small as I did, what David has done mounting the HF horn concentrically in the mouth of the LF horn is the way to go.
Click to expand...

Well actually, the way to go is get all your driver sections mounted at the appropriate spots along the same horn...but you probably know that already. ;>)

Best regards,

John
 
Re: New DIY Mid High

The only thing I saw that the fulcrum box did differently was to add their "lens," to the system so that they could have additional horn length in a smaller than conventional way. Paraline can be done this way also and other ways to add additional length to the horn. BUT it is still another way of doing it.

I would expect them to have to boost down low with what I can see. Looks like a straight horn with a "lens," on the rear for the tens. Seems like another 150hz design but I am probably in correct. And for the size of that thing I would just go with the SH64. The dual 10 they made is 32" x 32". That has a bigger mouth then the SH64 I would like to own. That is 34" x 26.5" and has four 15's and I think it will do 100hz ok. :D

Many ways of doing a 100hz speaker. I like Peters idea so far over this linked one. It was also hard for me to see the dual CD horn when I know a paraline lens would have been better. But that is patented by DSL. So they had to do it another way.
 
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