PM 60 & 90 settings and alternative drivers.

Peter Morris

Senior
May 8, 2011
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Australia
Yes I have some DCX 464's ... I have tried them in a slightly different box and horn. Impressions so far - better than the BMS4594 and as good as the 4594HE but different.. The 464 seems to have very clear mids and possibly more output capability, but I like the VHF better on the 4594HE. FWIW I think the wave front exit angles and SPL across the throat of the 464 are better than the 4594 so you get slight better coverage from your horn ... just a guess at the moment.

Not sure, still work in progress... but getting the 464 to sound the best you need to address the mid range driver peak at about 5.3 KHz, even though its out of band and cross it over around the 3 - 3.2Khz as recommended by B&C.

...and yes it will work well the 12NDL76 .... just need to check it will fit in the box with the 60 degree horn ...planning to check this all out soon when I have some spare time.
 
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Trev Mcd

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Yes I have some DCX 464's ... I have tried them in a slightly different box and horn. Impressions so far - better than the BMS4594 and as good as the 4594HE but different.. The 464 seems to have very clear mids and possibly more output capability, but I like the VHF better on the 4594HE. FWIW I think the wave front exit angles and SPL across the throat of the 464 are better than the 4594 so you get slight better coverage from your horn ... just a guess at the moment.

Not sure, still work in progress... but getting the 464 to sound the best you need to address the mid range driver peak at about 5.3 KHz, even though its out of band and cross it over around the 3 - 3.2Khz as recommended by B&C.

...and yes it will work well the 12NDL76 .... just need to check it will fit in the box with the 60 degree horn ...planning to check this all out soon when I have some spare time.
i'd love to hear more about your findings .keep us posted
 

Uwe Riemer

Freshman
Mar 3, 2011
105
2
18
Germany
For those, who are interested in the B&C coaxial driver:

I´ve been playing around with the 462 ( which is the 2" version of the 464 ) in combination with limmer 264 and 294 ( limmerhorns.de )
I wanted the 2" version, because this combination gives me a slightly longer horn path than the 464, one can get the 264/294 also with 1,4" throat.

So far the results in combination with a direct radiating 15" driver ( NDL88 ) are very nice. Crossover frequency is around 700Hz.
Directivity with 264 is simply fantastic above 800Hz. In contrary to the 18sound XT1464, which I know from other projects, there is nearly no HF loss to the sides.

With 294 horn there is a slight narrowing around 1500Hz like shown on the Limmer HP, but overall very, very good directivity behaviour.

Soundwise I haven´t heard anything better since the Stage Accompany Ribbon driver. I´m not listening to the box anymore, instead starting to judge the mix of the song.

Word of warning:
To flatten the 462 with my passive crossover, I need 8 PEQs for the 264 and 9 PEQs with 294, so for those who think a horn/driver combination should measure flat and sound good without PEQ, this might not be the right choice.

Of course I did compare the 462 to the BMS 4592, which measures considerably flatter on the same horn, but nothing has changed since I bought these.
I don´t like the BMS sound.

Since it seems, that the next 4 weeks do not provide many oportunities to earn money for people in the live sound business, at least in Europe,
I wish everyone the best to endure that.
 
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Peter Morris

Senior
May 8, 2011
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Australia
Here are some IIR settings for the PM60 using a Linea Research ASC48

The box is as per the plans but with the back corners cut off.
It uses the drivers listed below - If your box is slightly different or the drivers are not the same you will need to modify these settings to suit.

The ASC48 was set to BW for the filters - note the polarity of the 4594 mid.

2 x B&C 12 NDL 76 - 8 ohm
1 x Eighteen sound - XT1464 horn
1 x BMS 4594HE - 16 ohm

https://bcspeakers.com/en/products/lf-driver/12-0/8/12ndl76
http://www.eighteensound.com/en/products/horn/1-4/0/XT1464
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4594he0
 

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Peter Morris

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May 8, 2011
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I applied the EQ's from the above settings to the Hornresp SIM to see how all the calculations lined up.

Hornresp calculates a power response which can be correct for directivity (roughly) to give you SPL. You can apply the EQ's to it to see what the power response will be after its EQ-ed .... I took my best guess at what the SPL will be once corrected for directivity .... and it more or less all lined up :)
 

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Jim dee

Freshman
Jul 12, 2015
32
3
8
New Zealand.
Here are some IIR settings for the PM60 using a Linea Research ASC48

The box is as per the plans but with the back corners cut off.
It uses the drivers listed below - If your box is slightly different or the drivers are not the same you will need to modify these settings to suit.

The ASC48 was set to BW for the filters - note the polarity of the 4594 mid.

2 x B&C 12 NDL 76 - 8 ohm
1 x Eighteen sound - XT1464 horn
1 x BMS 4594HE - 16 ohm

https://bcspeakers.com/en/products/lf-driver/12-0/8/12ndl76
http://www.eighteensound.com/en/products/horn/1-4/0/XT1464
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4594he0
Hi peter, nice one mate! I guess you've got a little bit of time spare at the moment! Thanks for creating these i will endeavor to give them a try over the next week, ive been meaning to give the neighborhood a blast in any case(being rural has it advantages)!

Also i was going to come back to you with a couple more questions about these processors and perhaps its more appropriate in here. I priced one up here in NZ and the price seems reasonable even with a lousy NZD GBP rate!

Are you using the LIM crossovers and FIR filtering? How does this work out regarding the processing delay? Does the FIR processing time stack on top of the LIM processing time or do they run in parallel*? Do you use LIM for LF HPF or does this create further delay?

I hope your weathering the storm well and things are as good as they can be for you there.
 

Peter Morris

Senior
May 8, 2011
1,009
98
48
Australia
Hi Jim,

Like you I do have some spare time ... and I hope you guys are safe over there in NZ; NZ like us in OZ seems to be doing a great job so far (y) ... anyway...

I have used standard IIR filters for the above .... but I have also used LIM crossovers with all-pass filters for a flat phase and amplitude response. I have not needed to use the FIR modules yet. I can post these settings if people would like (?)

The latency of the LIM crossover is 1.19 / crossover frequency in KHz ..i.e. 100 Hz = 11.9ms + plus processing time for the AD/DA. There can also be some latency associated with the Vx limiter (Virtual Crossover) if you use it (max 1.53ms or 0.12 / passive crossover frequency in KHz)

Most shows that I do have at least 5m (16.4 feet) from the drum kit to the FOH ... or about 15.5ms to time align the FOH to the back line, so it all works fine. The problem with the Lake is that you can have 2.5ms, 5ms, 10ms or 20ms FIR time (in 3 way stereo mode) 20ms is often too long and 10ms only allows a LF crossover down to 125Hz if you want to use a 24dB LR curve.

If you use all LIM crossovers and you find you need less latency for a show just change the LF crossover to 24dBLR and it will automatically correct and reduce the latency to suit the mid frequency LIM crossover point.

I have not used a HPF for the subs but instead I have used excursion limiting that is available in the ASC48. I have also used this on the LF section of the PM60 (in addition to a 100Hz HPF)
 
Last edited:

Jim dee

Freshman
Jul 12, 2015
32
3
8
New Zealand.
Hi Jim,

Like you I do have some spare time ... and I hope you guys are safe over there in NZ; NZ like us in OZ seems to be doing a great job so far (y) ... anyway...

I have used standard IIR filters for the above .... but I have also used LIM crossovers with all-pass filters for a flat phase and amplitude response. I have not needed to use the FIR modules yet. I can post these settings if people would like (?)

The latency of the LIM crossover is 1.19 / crossover frequency in KHz ..i.e. 100 Hz = 11.9ms + plus processing time for the AD/DA. There can also be some latency associated with the Vx limiter (Virtual Crossover) if you use it (max 1.53ms or 0.12 / passive crossover frequency in KHz)

Most shows that I do have at least 5m (16.4 feet) from the drum kit to the FOH ... or about 15.5ms to time align the FOH to the back line, so it all works fine. The problem with the Lake is that you can have 2.5ms, 5ms, 10ms or 20ms FIR time (in 3 way stereo mode) 20ms is often too long and 10ms only allows a LF crossover down to 125Hz if you want to use a 24dB LR curve.

If you use all LIM crossovers and you find you need less latency for a show just change the LF crossover to 24dBLR and it will automatically correct and reduce the latency to suit the mid frequency LIM crossover point.

I have not used a HPF for the subs but instead I have used excursion limiting that is available in the ASC48. I have also used this on the LF section of the PM60 (in addition to a 100Hz HPF)
Yes I would be interested to see your more advanced settings... More so I can play around in linea research's software and see how you are using it. Although it would seem I'm gonna have to get one of these(magic little) boxes. Being able to achieve what you touted(and I believe you) as being acceptional results without mucking around with FIR has to be a real winner!

I must say these speakers are killer. Everytime I listen to them they just shine brighter than anything anything else I ever hear! I guess a lot of it has to do with these compression drivers but the low end does it business too! I'm not in the industry as such(I can get carried way with my passions) but enjoy chucking them outside some weekends and throwing the odd BBQ and people do like to use the word "clear". In any case many thanks for sharing! Top work!
 

Max Warasila

Graduate
Feb 20, 2013
1,157
49
48
Richmond, VA
I have not used a HPF for the subs but instead I have used excursion limiting that is available in the ASC48. I have also used this on the LF section of the PM60 (in addition to a 100Hz HPF)
How is the process for setting the limiter, and how good of a job do you think it realistically does?
 

Peter Morris

Senior
May 8, 2011
1,009
98
48
Australia
Hi Max,

At the moment I have no shows and no real opportunity to test the limiter other than to drive the amps without a load so the limiters engage : which I have done .... and they looked about right.

Page 28 of the manual explains their operation ... note: you MUST set the gain of the amplifier in the ASC48 for these to work correctly and you may have to calculate some voltages in dBu. For Xmax limiting I used the Xmax / voltage models I made in HornResp - see below

https://linea-research.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/LR Download Assets/User Guides/ASC User Guide.pdf
 

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Martin Chlum

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Dec 22, 2018
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For those, who are interested in the B&C coaxial driver:

I´ve been playing around with the 462 ( which is the 2" version of the 464 ) in combination with limmer 264 and 294 ( limmerhorns.de )
I wanted the 2" version, because this combination gives me a slightly longer horn path than the 464, one can get the 264/294 also with 1,4" throat.
So far the results in combination with a direct radiating 15" driver ( NDL88 ) are very nice. Crossover frequency is around 700Hz.
Hi Uwe,
If you write about DCX 462 2 ", this speaker can be used
simply rebuild by removing the reduction
for model 464 -1,4 "???
Thank you for your reply, Martin
 

Uwe Riemer

Freshman
Mar 3, 2011
105
2
18
Germany
Hi Uwe,
If you write about DCX 462 2 ", this speaker can be used
simply rebuild by removing the reduction
for model 464 -1,4 "???
Thank you for your reply, Martin
Hi Martin,
thanks for making me check this.
So I just removed what is basically a nice looking adapter ring from the 462.
The remaining throat diameter is 35,6mm.
The remaining plate has no mesh and sealing foam, mounting holes fit the standard pattern.
 

Martin Chlum

New member
Dec 22, 2018
2
0
1
54
Czech
Hi Martin,
thanks for making me check this.
So I just removed what is basically a nice looking adapter ring from the 462.
The remaining throat diameter is 35,6mm.
The remaining plate has no mesh and sealing foam, mounting holes fit the standard pattern.
Hi Uwe, thank you for the comprehensive answer.
Martin
 

Peter Krojgaard

New member
May 17, 2020
3
0
1
53
Denmark
Hi Uwe,

I saw you used the new 2" B&C DCX 462 and had compared it to the BMS 4592ND. Could you please elaborate on how the B&C sounds compared to the BMS 4592ND?

Thanks!

Best regards
Peter
 

Uwe Riemer

Freshman
Mar 3, 2011
105
2
18
Germany
Hi Uwe,

I saw you used the new 2" B&C DCX 462 and had compared it to the BMS 4592ND. Could you please elaborate on how the B&C sounds compared to the BMS 4592ND?

Thanks!

Best regards
Peter
Well, describing sound is something I would like to leave for the Hifi Magazines.

When I received the 462, I pulled the 4592 off the shelf and designed two way active crossovers on the Delta80 DSP for both drivers using the 264 limmer horn. So after some hours I was ready for a first listening test.

I was curious, if I could discover something in the 4592, I might have missed 13 years ago when using this driver on the Beyma TD460

Listening without any low-mid driver the 4592 revealed the same character I remembered and do not like, so it went back to the shelf.

For obvious reasons I had no chance to use the 462 in Live SR, what a pity.
 

Peter Krojgaard

New member
May 17, 2020
3
0
1
53
Denmark
Hi Uwe,

Thank you so much for responding!

I have used the BMS 4592ND myself, and consider switching to the B&C DXC 462, which is the reason that I ask. What I do not like about the BMS is, that the sound (at least to me) always seemed to be 'squeezed out' - as if the compression was quite obvious. The sound was never as relaxed as I would like to. In addition I struggled with sibilance (which I hate).

Does this in any way resemble your impressions, and is the B&C DCX without these 'faults'?

Thanks again!

Best regards
Peter



Well, describing sound is something I would like to leave for the Hifi Magazines.

When I received the 462, I pulled the 4592 off the shelf and designed two way active crossovers on the Delta80 DSP for both drivers using the 264 limmer horn. So after some hours I was ready for a first listening test.

I was curious, if I could discover something in the 4592, I might have missed 13 years ago when using this driver on the Beyma TD460

Listening without any low-mid driver the 4592 revealed the same character I remembered and do not like, so it went back to the shelf.

For obvious reasons I had no chance to use the 462 in Live SR, what a pity.
 

Uwe Riemer

Freshman
Mar 3, 2011
105
2
18
Germany
Hi Uwe,

Thank you so much for responding!

I have used the BMS 4592ND myself, and consider switching to the B&C DXC 462, which is the reason that I ask. What I do not like about the BMS is, that the sound (at least to me) always seemed to be 'squeezed out' - as if the compression was quite obvious. The sound was never as relaxed as I would like to. In addition I struggled with sibilance (which I hate).

Does this in any way resemble your impressions, and is the B&C DCX without these 'faults'?

Thanks again!

Best regards
Peter
Your description is good.
The 4592 always reminded me of the sound of breaking plastic.
Another picture which comes to my mind:
The 462 opens my ears, while the 4592 closes them.

Recently I compared the 462 to the DE990 with an 1,4"/2" adapter from Emminence.
Cymbals from the 990 sound more metallic, the 462 has kind of a "wooden" characteristic
( Tony Andrews moment :) )

The next project will explore the limits of the 462 ( oldschool legacy 2x12" horn top upgrade )
my recent 15NDL88 design can´t.
 

Peter Krojgaard

New member
May 17, 2020
3
0
1
53
Denmark
Hi Uwe,

Thanks a lot! Please keep us updated about these experiments!

Best regards
Peter



Your description is good.
The 4592 always reminded me of the sound of breaking plastic.
Another picture which comes to my mind:
The 462 opens my ears, while the 4592 closes them.

Recently I compared the 462 to the DE990 with an 1,4"/2" adapter from Emminence.
Cymbals from the 990 sound more metallic, the 462 has kind of a "wooden" characteristic
( Tony Andrews moment :) )

The next project will explore the limits of the 462 ( oldschool legacy 2x12" horn top upgrade )
my recent 15NDL88 design can´t.